tl;dr We are talking vaginal discharge, FGM or genital cutting scars, cheating when a partner has Alzheimers, and how to teach your kids the importance of pleasure with food.

• Power in Pleasure, my 5-week online course all about pleasure is now enrolling. The next cohort starts March 22nd, so do not miss it! Especially now with the news cycle and the fear. Spending some dedicated time for 5 weeks, plus 6 intimate group calls, to explore pleasure and safety is sooo important. Check out the details and enroll now.

First up – BE SURE TO SIGN-UP FOR THE BODY TRUST SUMMIT!!! There are still 3 days left which means NINE free talks to see, and there is a 90-minute Parenting with Body Trust panel on Tuesday, March 17th that is a MUST for parents and caregivers of small children. Register, for free, now because it’s entirely online and ends March 17th.

Patrons who support at $3 and above, this week’s bonus will be at patreon.com/sgrpodcast. Enjoy!

Also, I love your emails. Send your questions my way! You can use the contact form at dawnserra.com.

On to the episode!

First up, COVID-19/corona virus. Alex and I are self-isolating indefinitely to help protect our community, but that doesn’t mean no connection, joy, pleasure, movement, or delight! If you want to be a part of some virtual community gatherings, I’ll be hosting many in the coming months for the Explore More community. Join the Facebook group to learn more!

I came across this piece by Brianna Wiest and some of the words really struck me. How inhuman our expectations are of healing, of figuring this life thing out. I share a few passages and my thoughts.

And then it’s on to your emails.

I Sense You Are Stronger Than Me wrote in asking about vaginal discharge. Occasionally, especially after sex, ISYASTM will have thick, white discharge and they are embarrassed to go to the doctor to get it checked. Is it normal? What is it?

First up, I am not a doctor and this is not a medical show, so going to a doctor is important if you are worried something needs attention. Discharge that is itchy, foul smelling, slightly discolored (grey, yellow, green), or chunky like cottage cheese can indicate a yeast infection, BV, or an STI – so get checked!

That said, I also want to share a few articles with you about the ways our discharge can change over the month and the impact that condom-less intercourse with a penis can have on vaginal pH and discharge. Check out these three articles I quoted in the episode:

• Honorably Discharged: A Guide to Vaginal Secretions on Scarleteen
• The Ultimate Color Guide to Vaginal Discharge on Healthline
• Types of Vaginal Discharge and How to Tell Them Apart During Your Cycle by Hello Clue

Next up, North is struggling because they have a lovely partner they’ve been with a year. Everything is fantastic. The problem? North’s partner experienced genital cutting (many people know it as FGM or FGC) and the scars on their partner’s genitals trigger a disgust response. North isn’t disgusted by their partner, but by the evidence of the violence that was done to them. How can they move past it all?

In case you’d like more information, be sure to check out Equality Now’s website about ending genital cutting as well as The Orchid Project.

Donald Alone wrote in concerned that he is cheating. He is in his 80s, and his wife has Alzheimers and is in a memory care facility. Donald recently met a woman who, while married has been left by her husband, and the two of them are hitting it off. They’ve kissed and they are wondering if what they’ve done is considered cheating.

It’s such an important question and one I’m grateful to get to explore with all of you.

Finally, Eating Momma loves the idea of eating for pleasure and wants to help teach her 9-year-old daughter the importance of pleasure around food. How does she do that?

First – scroll to the top of these notes and register for the Body Trust Summit if you’re seeing this before March 17th because on March 17th there is an awesome 5-person panel on Parenting with Body Trust. It’s a must-see for parents.

Next, look up Ellyn Satter’s work around growing competent eaters and the Division of Responsibility around meal time. It’s fantastic stuff.

Finally, it’s important for adults to model their own pleasure, so for many parents it starts with working through your own food and body shame so that you can show up more fully at the table during meals.

A huge thanks to the Vocal Few for their song in the opening and closing of the episode and to Hemlock for their awesome song “Firelight” which was used in this episode between questions.

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook and Dawn is on Instagram.

About Dawn Serra:

What if everything you’ve been taught about relationships, about your body, about sex is wrong? My name is Dawn Serra and I dare to ask scary questions that might lead us all towards a deeper, more connected experience of our lives. In addition to being the host of the weekly podcast, Sex Gets Real, the creator of the online conference Explore More, I also work one-on-one with clients who are feeling stuck, confused, or disappointed with the ways they experience desire, love, and confidence. It’s not all work, though. In my spare time, you can find me adventuring with my husband, cuddling my cats as I read a YA novel, or obsessing over MasterChef Australia.

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra, that’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships, from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love, as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics, and liberation. This is about the big and the small, about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing, and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So, welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.

Welcome to Episode 298 of Sex Gets Real. That is a lot of episodes. In fact, the cutoff for the number of episodes you can have in iTunes is 300, which means I am going to have to start archiving some of the messages of the show. You’ll be able to hear all of them at dawnserra.com in the little Podcast area. But, yeah. Some of the apps where you listen to podcasts are going to now only display the most recent 200 to 250 episodes ‘cause they’ll probably pull a handful down. But it’s exciting.

Dawn Serra: I am still excited to be here with you now. After all these episodes and all the changes, I love being in conversation with all of you – your messages, your questions, your feedback, all of it. So thank you for being here with me.

Also, depending on when you’re listening to this, we are in the middle of a pandemic that is worldwide. It may or may not still be a thing that most people are talking about, depending on when you hear this episode. But I’m recording it on March 12th of 2020 and coronavirus/COVID-19 news is the only news in most of my feeds.  People are pretty worried.

Alex and I have decided to self-isolate for however long the pandemic lasts. I know several sources that I’ve been reading say often, with pandemics like this, like what happened with the Spanish flu, is that there’s an initial outbreak and people move through it, and then people start relaxing and easing up on some of their protective measures, and then a second round happens – usually, several months later. We’re prepared to do as much self-isolation as we can, for as long as there’s still the potential for immunocompromised, disabled and older folks to get this and get sick. 

Dawn Serra: adrienne maree brown was talking about all of this on her Instagram. She offered how we need to pivot the ways that we’re thinking about the pandemic. She offered that we need to pivot away from, “How do I avoid getting this disease,” to instead thinking, “I probably already have it, so how do I behave if that’s true? How do I protect people and care for them if I already have it?” It’s a way to actually be heroic and really responsible in the ways that we move through our lives.

Not everyone can self-isolate, but there are all kinds of things that we can all do. Those of us who can really need to take that privilege really seriously. And physically isolating ourselves doesn’t mean cutting ourselves off from play, pleasure, connection, nourishment, joy, or life. Yesterday, I had a 90 minute Zoom lunch date with Melissa Toler. We munched on food, laughed until our bellies hurt, commiserated about work and stress, and talked about the TV shows that we were watching, and it was absolutely delightful. Neither one of us had to leave our house, and it still felt nourishing and wonderful and so overdue.

Dawn Serra: Last week, I had an almost two-hour long phone call conversation with a really dear friend of mine from Northern Virginia that I hadn’t seen or talked to in quite a while. We caught up on all the things. So connection is definitely possible across distance. Long distance relationship folks know that. I hope that in whatever capacity you were caring for yourself, that you find time for things that feel good. Right now, at my house, sunbathing is happening in the living room. Alex and the kitties have all the blinds open, windows open, blankets out. They’re passed out, soaking up the sun. Later, I’m making homemade everything bagels and we’re going to do some yoga.

My hope is that more of us choose to self-isolate out of a responsibility for caring for those around us – this is what it means to be in community. And that we still connect and share and support. And do what helps others even if it’s a little inconvenient for you.

Dawn Serra: Also, because more things are moving online, I want to remind you that the March cohort of my 5-week online Power in Pleasure course is enrolling now. So sign up! Join us! Time is almost running out. We start on March 22nd, which is right around the corner. It’s such a fantastic, intimate, vulnerable experience. Because it’s all online, we can still be exploring our pleasure, our stories, our fears, hopes, dreams, our relationship to the erotic from our devices. There’s six live community calls with me. Those calls are such a gift, and there’s such deep connections and intimacy that happens really quickly on those calls. It’s amazing how every single time I run this course, people talk about how much less alone they feel. That’s particularly important these days. You also get daily emails from me for 35 days that are full of all kinds of stories, questions, thoughts, articles, videos about pleasure, food, body, movement, sex, relationships, and how it all ties to your experience of pleasure. I would love for you to be there. Details and enrollment are at dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse. We start March 22nd. 

The other day, I saved a piece by someone named Brianna Wiest titled, “You Cannot Heal Your Way Out of Being Human,” and the subtitle says, “And you were never meant to.” I want to share a little of it here because it fits really beautifully with so many of our recent conversations. Brianna writes, “You cannot heal your way to a world where darkness doesn’t exist. It always will. You cannot heal your way into the most physically perfect version of yourself. That’s not who you were born and built to be. You cannot heal your way out of every worry, issue, struggle, grief, sadness, or down day. That’s not the point of being alive. The point of healing is not to return to a place where everything is perfect. Instead, it is to begin to develop the ability to respond to what’s imperfect. You cannot heal your way out of being human, and you were never supposed to.”

Dawn Serra: Then later in the piece, Brianna goes on to write, “We imagine healing as though it’s a way to sterilize ourselves into an unfeeling state. In reality, healing is the ability to feel fully and freely — and to know that no single emotional experience defines us forever. Healing is not the idea that we might will our way into physical perfection. Instead, it’s stepping into the glory of who and how we are, and loving that as deeply as we possibly can. Healing is not the practice of slowly disassociating from every single person who frustrates us until we’ve isolated ourselves. Instead, it’s the practice of communicating through frustration, stating our needs before we hit our breaking point, and accepting that tension is a natural part of human relationships — one that we can all better navigate. Healing is not the hope that we may one day reach a place where nothing bothers us. To get there, we’d have to withdraw so severely we wouldn’t ever be presented with the opportunity to try and fail, to be seen and vulnerable, to try new things, to be challenged, and to grow. Healing is not about trying to remove everything that is imperfect, but about responding to what is imperfect with more understanding, more clarity, and more strength.”

Wooh! All of that, all of that, I love it so muchI don’t love all of the post because it does put a lot of emphasis on the individual and only on the individual. But that’s okay. That’s the beauty of all of us having voices and getting to share and create together. The parts that I’ve shared here, I feel are a beautiful fit for the show and all the places that we go. But the parts that I didn’t share are probably exactly what someone else needs to hear.

Dawn Serra: We are human beings. Sometimes we forget that. Sometimes we feel like floating heads. We are mammals in these really fleshy bodies of ours that are just so fragile and delicate, but at the same time, resilient and strong. I think so often when we talk about healing from sexual violence or eating disorders or from abuse or when we think about growth and becoming better versions of ourselves, that vision that we hold sometimes is a really inhuman one. Sometimes the vision and the dream is just more violence because we’re expecting perfection out of ourselves. We’re expecting something that maybe is impossible. We imagine a point in time when things don’t hurt, when it’s not awkward and messy, when we’re certain and clear all the time, when we’re done with practicing and have just arrived.

But that’s not what it means to be alive as a human. Which is why I love Brianna’s words so much. I think the further away we get from our feelings, the more cutoff we are from our pain, our discomfort, the constant growth that we’re experiencing, the further away we drift from our humanity, and so much of what we explore here on the show and in the Pleasure Course and in the Explore More Summit, that it’s our humanity that yields the yummiest, the most nourishing and joyful experiences. Connection, belonging, pleasure, laughter, wonder, marvel – those things happen in our bodies and because of our bodies, because of our moods and our emotions and all of the other people that are around us in big and small ways. And that is inherently messy. I thought those words from Brianna about imperfection and healing could be something that we just hold as we explore your questions this week.

Dawn Serra: Also, speaking of this week, Patrons, there is going to be a new bonus at patreon.com/sgrpodast. If you support at $3 a month and above, you get access to weekly bonus content that’s not published anywhere else. If you support at $5 a month and above, you occasionally get to help me answer listener questions, which is really fun. This weeks bonus will probably drop on either Monday or Tuesday because I’m super busy with the Body Trust Summit, but trust it is coming.

Next week, Leonore Tjia will be joining us. Leonore and I just recorded a really awesome discussion all about sexual shame and mental health, and the erotic. So definitely stay tuned and check that our next week. Okay. This week, I’ve got four of your emails, and we are going to jump in and see what it is that you asked. Let’s go!

Dawn Serra: This first email is from “I Sense You Are Stronger Than Me,” and it’s about vaginal discharge. Here’s what they wrote: “Hi Dawn! I have a question about my vagina. During sexual activities, my vagina has, on a number of occasions, oozed very thick white substance while aroused. It’s not squirting, which looks like pee, but more a rush of white fluid. Think really hot milk chocolate on a chocolate fountain – that consistency. I’m ashamed to ask my friends. I’ve tried to Google it with most of the results coming back with squirting. Is it my Skene’s gland? Anyway, I am embarrassed and ashamed. Do you have resources that may help me determine what this is? I guess I could record it or take a picture and show my doctor, but that humiliates me. Plus it only happens sometimes. Thank you.”

Oh, well. Hello to you! Thank you so much for writing in and asking this question. It’s a common one, so just know that your courage in writing in with this question, that you feel embarrassed and ashamed around, is actually going to help a lot of other people. We all get to learn a little bit about vaginal discharge because of your question.

Dawn Serra: It’s also really normal that asking a doctor about discharge feels embarrassing or awkward. Most of our doctors these days are rushed. They’re busy. They know very little about us. We may not even see the same one when we go into the same office or clinic. They receive the bare minimum in training around sexuality. And that really doesn’t create the safest and most accepting environment for us to be really vulnerable and naked and asking questions like this.

A lot of people prefer going to clinics that are specifically designed for sexual health to ask questions like these. Planned Parenthood is an awesome choice if you’re in the U.S. But there are sexual health clinics all around the world that specialize in birth control, gynocological health, pregnancy, abortion, all things genitals. 

Dawn Serra: I also just want to note, I am not a doctor. This show is not a show about medical advice. So I do strongly recommend that, just to be safe, you seek medical advice just to ensure you don’t have a yeast infection or bacterial vaginosis – which is known as BV – or even an STI like chlamydia. Get that checked out if you are concerned. But here is some of the information that I gathered for you so that we can all be inside of vaginal discharge questions. 

Discharge is an important part of what helps to keep the vaginal canal and the cervical area healthy. One of the things that I actually learned while I was doing some research for you was that, on average, vaginas will secrete about a ½ tsp of discharge every eight hours. But, of course, there’s a range, certain activities, medicines, ages, illnesses can impact that. That’s just a very generic range. Discharge consistency, volume, color, those change depending on where someone is in their cycle, what activities they’re doing, their health.

Dawn Serra: I found this great article about vaginal discharge on a website called Hello Clue, which goes with the Clue app, which tracks cycles. It shared that leading up to your ovulation, discharge is often really sticky, white, creamy, or lotion-y. They wrote, “As estrogen levels rise, the cervix produces more fluid. At first, it may be thick and sticky or tacky, and become more wet and creamy, like a lotion. It may look whitish and cloudy, or even slightly yellowish, especially if it’s dried on your underwear. In a 28-day menstrual cycle, you may first notice this fluid around day 9 or 10.”

Then during ovulation, the discharge often becomes kind of eggwhite-y. It’s really slippery and wet. You can stretch it between your fingers. Hello Clue wrote, “As estrogen peaks, 1–2 days before ovulation, cervical fluid often resembles a raw eggwhite that you can stretch for inches between your thumb and finger. The amount of vaginal discharge at this time is different for everyone, but it can be up to 10–20 times more than at other points in your cycle.”

Dawn Serra: Then I also found a piece on Healthline that said, “A variety of white shades of discharge, from eggshell to cream, can be normal. Unless your discharge is accompanied by certain textures or smells, don’t fret too much.” Which begs the question, when should you be concerned? That white, thick, lotion-y discharge is common just before ovulation, but if it is chunky like cottage cheese curds, or if it has a really foul odor, or if it’s really significant in volume, then you’ll probably going to want to get checked for a yeast infection or bacterial vaginosis. If it has a slight yellow or green or greyish tint, that can indicate that it might be chlamydia or gonorrhea or another STI. Everything I just listed is pretty easy to treat, especially if you start treatment soon after noticing that something is different. Yeast infections, bacteria, chlamydia, gonorrhea, there’s treatment for those things. You just need to talk to a doctor to see what’s going on.

It’s also really interesting and important to note, if you have a vagina and you’re engaging in intercourse with someone who has a penis and you’re not using a condom, that can impact several things including the pH of the vagina. I found this really great quote on Scarleteen that says, “Know that semen substantially alters the pH of the vagina (semen is alkaline, and acidic vaginas buffer that, which is great for reproduction, but not so wonderful for keeping the vagina in balance). So, it’s normal to have your discharges or even scents — when people experience “fishy” smelling vaginas. Sometimes it’s just residual semen — but it can be a bit different for a few days, just from intercourse without a condom. But, Scarleteen notes, “If those things last more than a couple of days, it might be something else, and that’s when you would want to go and talk to a doctor.” 

Dawn Serra: Just speaking general vaginal health, do not douche. Do not douche unless you’re under care from a doctor and they’ve prescribed that for a very particular reason, don’t douche. Also, don’t use super flowery or super heavily-scented or harsh soaps to wash your vulva. Don’t wipe from back to front. Don’t pull anything from your anus into your vagina. That just creates all kinds of problems and potential infections. And be sure to air it out! Yeast infections and other kinds of infections can happen when we don’t treat our vulvas and vaginas with respect and care. Also, keep in mind they’re supposed to smell like pussy. They’re not supposed to either be scentless and/or smell something artificial. A healthy vagina is going to smell like vagina.

Going back to your question – white, thick discharge – it’s normal for certain times of the month and if you happen to be engaging in barrier-free intercourse where semen is also entering the mix, then it sounds like what’s happening to you is pretty normal. As long as it’s not itchy, uncomfortable, chunky, as long as it doesn’t smell really foul or off, and if it isn’t discolored, or especially a lot, it’s probably just normal discharge.

Dawn Serra: But when you aren’t sure, it’s a really good idea to just head to a Planned Parenthood or local sexual health clinic for a check-up. It’s so much less embarrassing and so much better to find out that it’s nothing than to wait, and then find out that it is something and it’s flared up to a point where it’s harder to treat or it causes additional problems. So take care of you and do whatever’s going to help reduce harm as much as possible.

Discharge is a part of healthy vaginas, so if you have a vagina, getting to know your discharge can actually be a really good way to know more about your body, to appreciate all the things that it does to protect itself, to maintain itself. Vaginas are really good at keeping themselves balanced and clean. And knowing those things about ourselves just means more power, more choice, more awareness. I hope that helps! I’m going to share links to the three articles that I mentioned at dawnserra.com/ep298. If you want to check those out and read more, they will be there. Thank you so much for listening and for writing in!

Dawn Serra: This next question is about genital cutting. You might know it as FGM or female genital mutilation, or FGC – female genital cutting. If you’d like to skip it, you can jump ahead to 42:20 when I start on the next question. Okay. So let’s dive in. 

North writes, “Dear Dawn, I absolutely love your podcast, your way of speaking, your advice and everything you put out there. Thank you for all you do! Here’s my problem. I’m in a very happy relationship with an individual who is beautiful inside and out. They treat me well, make me happy and I hope to have this person in my life for many years to come.

Dawn Serra: One year into our relationship I am still struggling with the harsh reality that my partner was subjected to genital mutilation because of the pleasure-phobic culture they were born into.  Genital cutting is an extremely sensitive subject which has impacted me on a visceral level ever since I first learned what it was as a teenager, and I have been a vocal advocate of children’s rights to remain intact for many years. 

Although logically I know my partner is blameless and had no choice in what was done to them, I still recoil inwardly every time we’re naked together, even going so far as to not directly look at them down there because those feelings of anger and disgust that I connect with this despicable practice are always in my mind no matter how hard I’ve tried to push them away during our time together. Is there anything I can do to remedy this, so that I can focus on the positives of my partner and be a better lover to them? Thank you, North”

Dawn Serra: Hi North! Thank you so much for the kind words and for writing in with such an important question. For those of you who are newer to the show or maybe haven’t listened to the full back catalog, several years ago, I interviewed Mariya Karimjee about her experience as someone who had FGM – female genital mutilation, which was the term that she used at the time. It was done to her as a girl. She was on This American Life and a number of other shows being interviewed about it. She was so gracious and came on the show for  Episode 146. If you want to tune in, Episode 146 has my chat with Mariya.

I want to start with some statistics just because not everybody knows a lot about genital cutting. According to the World Health Organization, over 200 million women and girls alive today have been cut; over 3.9 million girls – a more recent number suggests 4.1, so over 4.1 million girls – are at risk each year; 30 countries still practice genital cutting on vulvas, and it happens in the U.S. and Canada all the time. 

Dawn Serra: I just want to note, a lot of the language is going to mention female genital mutilation and female genital cutting. Hopefully, everyone who listens to the show by now knows that people of all genders have vulvas and people of all genders can experience this. I’m going to use the language that’s available depending on what I’m quoting, and then do my best to keep it degendered when I go through the rest.

Equality Now, who works around genital cutting, shares, “FGM occurs across all cultural, religious and socio-economic groups. It is practiced on every continent except Antarctica.” Over 200 million people with another four at risk every single year. I wanted to share those numbers, one, because it’s important for more of us to see the very real and harmful impacts of patriarchy and a fear of female and queer pleasure and the impact that it has on so many people’s lives. More of us need to be aware really thinking about this. I also wanted to share this with you, North, specifically, because over 200 million, that’s a lot of people. The United States has 327 million people, so to say that genital cutting isn’t rare, is true. There’s a lot of people out there who are impacted by it.

Dawn Serra: It sounds like you happen to have met one of these people, and that your partner is an amazing human. It also sounds like you’d really love to be able to savor and delight in their body as a way to show how much you care. But it sounds like that’s been kind of complicated. I think the sad reality is your partner probably notices your reaction and expects it at this point. I think anybody who’s in a body that’s a little bit different – be it a fat body, a disabled body, a scarred body, a chronically-ill body – we get used to the reactions that other people have to us. It might break our hearts a little bit every single time. But often, we come to kind of expect it. It does makes sense why you have such an intense reaction – to see the physical scars left on someone’s genitals, knowing they did not consent to that, and knowing that there are so many people that are experiencing the same thing – that’s a lot to face for any human. I mean, the rage. The horror. The confusion. The sadness. That’s an enormous ball of feelings.

Disgust, specifically, is a feeling that’s associated with needing to move away from something. It’s something we can’t tolerate or stomach and so we want it away. I picture this like, “Woah!” – kind of pushing motion. But the problem is when disgust is directed towards a person or a part of a person, it really can cause a lot of hurt and shame.

Dawn Serra: I’m also really sure, based on your email, North, that you’ll agree with me when I say it’s so important for your partner to feel fully accepted, desired, and savored, especially considering what they’ve been through. So the first question I have is have you talked to your partner about how they want to be touched? How do they want to be looked at? How do they want to be celebrated? What do they fantasize about? Their answers to those questions might give you lots of new ideas and opportunities for sexy connection that are beyond what you’ve already been doing.

When it comes to genital cutting, some people experience mild to incredibly severe, ongoing pain. Some, for the rest of their lives, chronic infections, easy tearing, inflammation of the tissue, numbness, and loss of sensation to hypersensitivity to any sensation, and a whole host of other issues. I think it’s especially important to know how does your partner want to be touched? What feels good for them in their body? Is it slow, gentle, lubricated fingers that touch while you two make out? Is it a soft, warm, enthusiastic tongue? Is it a particular kind of motion or toy? Do they need to reach a certain level of arousal before direct touching feels good? Or, does a certain level of arousal start to cause pain?

Dawn Serra: Every single vulva is different, and that remains true after genital cutting because every vulva is still different and every scar is totally unique. Cutting can range from a really small scar and knick to complete removal of all external tissues and everything in between. I’m not sure exactly what the scarring looks like on your partner, but depending on the tissue and the scars, certain touches or sensations might feel really good or be totally off-limits.

And while the external part of the clitoris, the part that many of us can see and touch, is packed with nerve endings – there’s over 8,000 little nerve endings in that nub of pleasure – it’s only a tiny piece of the larger clitoris. The clitoris has a massive internal structure. So that means that even for people who have had that external part of their clitoris removed or parts of their labia, there’s still so much tissue in that area that is ripe for pleasure depending on your partner’s body.

Dawn Serra: Maybe your partner doesn’t really know what they like, so part of what’s been happening is a little bit of fumbling to figure it out. That’s okay, too! It’s a perfect excuse to do a little bit of exploring together – to turn it into a pleasure experiment. 

I think more information is going to help you to get to know their body more intimately, which is going to help lower disgust because your partner is so much more than their genitals, their scars, this one particular part of their body and what happened to it. Whether genital scars are nonconsensual cutting or the result of gender affirmation surgery, people are so much more than their genitals, and sex can be so much more than genitals, too. Which is exciting because it means all of us have so many more options.

Dawn Serra: But it does sound like in addition to learning more about your partner’s preferences, fantasies, wants, and desires, you, specifically, North, have some things that you need to work through. Whether your partner experienced genital cutting or your partner is missing a limb or has cerebral palsy or a colostomy bag, it’s on you to work through your feelings and your responses with the help of someone who isn’t your partner. 

Everyone is different. Some people don’t mind doing the labor of educating a partner and helping them process, but it’s a really good idea to have outside support where you can process the tough stuff without committing microaggressions, without worrying about hurting your loved one with the words that you’re using or your reactions. A feminist therapist might be a really helpful support person for you so that you can explore and unpack some of these stories you have about your partner’s body and the feelings that you have.

Dawn Serra: I’m also wondering if part of your reaction is because you see your partner as a victim and not as a sexual, desirable adult who has agency and power in the here and now. I’m also wondering, would it help to read some stories or even some erotica featuring people who have experienced genital cutting.

The first thing that pops to mind is – forgive me, but – Anne Rice’s BDSM trilogy about “Sleeping Beauty.” It’s fictional and problematic for a lot of reasons, but it does feature this really hot sex scene in the third book when the protagonist, who is Beauy, ends up overseas with a group of women who have experienced genital cutting. The protagonist fucks one of these women and teaches her that she can still experience orgasm even without that external part of her clitoris. For that woman, it’s a marvel. She didn’t know that she could still experience that pleasure. While I do think that a white woman writing an erotic story exoticizing brown bodies is really icky and we wouldn’t probably do that these days, these books are rather old, it was the first time in my life – I was probably 18 or 19 – when  I ever read anything that didn’t paint a survivor of genital cutting’s body as broken or sad. This scene really painted this woman’s body as something capable of pleasure and being pleased in really sexy, unapologetic ways.

Dawn Serra: It also makes me think of one of the main characters in Laurell Hamilton’s “Anita Blake” series. There’s this very old and super sexy vampire named Asher, who has the ability to make anyone orgasm just by thinking about it. But Asher was tortured and burned from head to toe on one whole side of his body at some point in his life. Most people are really repelled by his burn scars, so he has to use his vampire hypnosis to get people to look past them. But the thing that’s really special about his relationship with Anita is that Anita really sees the scars as just being a part of him. These scars are something to explore, to befriend, to savor, to honor, to touch with love and reverence. 

I think of that because I was thinking, what if you saw these scars on your partner as a part of their body that was extra, extra deserving of exploration, savoring, honoring, tenderness, fascination, love? Literally the antithesis of what was done to that tissue nonconsensually. Literally the opposite of the violence. Instead of continuing with the shame and the horror, really seeing this lovely human’s body as something and someone to cherish – especially the parts that have been violated and harmed. It’s like a big, huge fuck you to the entire goal of genital cutting procedures. Like, “Look at me loving and honoring and bringing pleasure to these parts that you tried to steal.”

Dawn Serra: I also think, with time, your partner’s body is just going to become more and more familiar in a lot of ways. That mole, that scar, that crooked toe, that sideways tooth – over months and years, all of these little things that can stand out at first to us, down the road, can become really comforting and integrated as a part of your vision of who this other human is, to a point where you almost stop seeing it.

I think for you, North, it’s important to be able to share what you’re struggling with. Sharing that with someone other than your partner is what I would suggest – an impartial third party who can help you really process some of these intense feelings, to validate the feelings. Just like so many of the other things we’ve talked about on the show, when we try to deny a truth, when we say, “I’m not going to feel that. I’m not going to feel that. I can’t believe I felt that again,” it creates a lot of tension and constriction, which makes it so much harder for us to move through and beyond something. So having someone who can really be in those feelings with you, who validate the feelings, see the importance of the feelings, and also help you to practice finding more space, more capacity for other feelings when you engage with your partner’s genitals is a really important start.

Dawn Serra: In the meantime, because that kind of work is going to take time, there is so much potential to get really creative with the ways that the two of you have sex. Make out with them as you finger them. Put a blindfold on and have them ride your face. Hold a vibrator against their clitoral area as you fuck. Look into their eyes as you penetrate them with a dildo. Or, bend over the bed yourself while your partner straps it on and fucks you. There’s so many ways that the two of you can experience pleasure, connection, super, super fucking hot sex without you having to look at something that causes some distress or pain for the two of you

Focus on what’s possible for your two bodies and what the two of you like, and that’s going to be so much more likely to yield a lot of play and pleasure versus focusing on what you don’t like and what isn’t working. There is so much more to discover than there is to avoid. And there could be something really wonderful if you spend more time in that curious space together and finding ways to give each other pleasure that doesn’t trigger some of those more intense feelings.

I hope that offers you some ideas and questions and possibilities, North. I hope that in the near future, you are going to be making love to every single inch of your partner’s body with abandon and delight because you both really deserve it. Thank you so much for writing in.

Dawn Serra: This next email comes from DonaldAlone. Donald writes, “I am 81. My wife is 80. She has Alzheimer’s and is in hospice in a Memory Care facility. I’m not sure if she knows me or not. I have met a woman whose husband left her eight months ago, but she is still married.  I am very attracted to her sexually. We both very much miss the touching we had with our mates. So far we have only kissed, but I am wondering if one or both of us have already cheated on our partner, or where to draw the line on the kind of sexual activity to consider cheating. Thanks for any help you can give us.”

Ah! Hi Donald! Thank you for writing into the show. I really appreciate getting to be inside of this question with you. I’m really sorry to hear that your wife has Alzheimer’s. It must be so challenging to navigate her care, her memory loss, all the feelings and the realities that go with watching someone you love go through that. And the impact to you, too.

Dawn Serra: I think the question you’re asking is ultimately a really personal one. It’s a perfect example of how complicated it is to be human and in relationship with other humans. There isn’t a right answer or a wrong answer. I think instead, it’s an answer that is going to feel more right for you than not. But that doesn’t mean that it’s easy.

I did take a look at a couple of articles about well-spouse affairs, which sounds a little bit what you’re describing, which is when one spouse is well and caretaking for the other, who often has Alzheimers, dementia, or some other kind of debilitating condition, like being in a coma or on life support. Essentially, what all of these articles revealed to me is that lots of people are in similar situations that it’s becoming increasingly common because we have a large population of people who are aging. And that it really does come down to your ethics and your beliefs.

Dawn Serra: Something that I read in the articles that I did want to share on the show. It’s not specifically for you, Donald. But I think it’s going to be really helpful for others who might be in a similar situation at some point down the road, is that many hospice doctors and religious leaders suggest having conversations with a spouse or a partner before something serious happens. What would each of you like to have happen should you become incapacitated or experience significant memory loss? What would you want if you weren’t able to really be present any more? I think talking about things like this before they happen can feel a little bit scary and a little bit awkward, but when things actually are really tough and complicated, having a little bit of information and an idea of what your partner would want can really help.

So back to you, Donald. Would you feel guilty pursuing this other relationship while your wife is in the care facility? For some people, the answer is yes, and that guilt can compromise their health and their well-being. If that’s you, then there’s no reason that you can’t treat this new woman as a really sexy friend and keep it platonic – which isn’t to say that you can’t have intimacy and touch because you can absolutely have intimacy and touch with a platonic friend.

Dawn Serra: It also makes me wonder if your wife rarely remembers you any more. Does that feel different than if she remembers you vividly, but from time to time? Only you can answer that. If you think about some of these questions and you feel sad but not guilty, then this might be something that’s important for you to explore because you do ultimately deserve care, you deserve touch, you deserve companionship. If I were in your shoes, if my partner were in a memory care facility and was going to remain there for the rest of their life, I would pursue other relationships if I had the chance. I would want companionship, touch, intimacy, pleasure, and to feel cared for after all of that caretaking and stress and worry that comes with a partner who’s going through something like Alzheimer’s.

It’s also important to note loneliness is really terrible for our health. We also know that it has serious negative health impacts, especially on folks who are elders. If this new woman is making you feel alive and excited and special, that’s important and real.

Dawn Serra: Another factor that you named in your message is that this new woman is married, but that her husband left several months ago. Again, I think it really comes down to her, for her to decide is she is still beholden to her marriage vows or not. I mean, she’s married on paper, but it sounds like her husband made a choice to exit the relationship and hasn’t been back. That’s not to say that he won’t be back at some point, but I personally – again, this is just for me, the two of you might have different feelings – don’t believe that she’s required to put her life on hold if things have been in limbo for that long. Some people might call what you’ve done cheating. Some people might call it doing your best in a really difficult situation. And they can both be true, too – or neither one.

I also really have been trying to think, what about a relationship requires some accountability and responsibility? What does care and love look like for your wife now. Being in a care facility where her needs are met sounds like care. Visiting her, spending time with her, even when she doesn’t remember, sounds like care and respect and love. And I think that’s the most we can ask from people we love when we’re no longer able to make sense of reality. Care. Respect. Love. Ensuring our needs are met. Reducing pain as much as possible. And maybe a little bit of pleasure – sunshine and fresh air and soft blankets and familiar voices and touch.

Dawn Serra: It really does sound like you and this new woman are considering how you want to navigate this relationship, and whether you want it to be more physical. The question is, what would be right for the two of you? All I can recommend is that you do your best, you ask yourself some important questions, and then trust yourself to deal with whatever comes next. In the end, it really does not matter if other people think what you’re doing is cheating or not. What matters is that you have taken stock of your situation, you do your best to care for the people in your life and to care for yourself, and that you know you deserve to feel good, even if that looks different than you’d previously imagined. When we enter into relationships, it’s not often that we enter into them thinking we’ll end up in a situation like the one that you’re in. We may know that that’s a possibility, but we certainly don’t begin our relationships thinking one of us might end up not remembering the other.

All I want to say, Donald, is I really appreciate that you’re asking the question. I’m kind of excited for you that you met this new person. I hope that whatever comes next for you, you feel like you have people who care about you and that you get to make time for pleasure. And I want to wish you the very best.

Dawn Serra: I wanted to squeeze this last question in for this week’s episode because it’s about pleasure and food and kids. There’s something really time-sensitive about my answer. Eating Momma wrote in with a subject line that says, “Pleasure Focused Eating For Kids.” Here’s what Eating Momma wrote: “So I really love the idea of eating for pleasure, and the faith in ourselves that is included in the idea that if we eat our pleasure consistently we will do what is best for us. While I was listening…” – I’m assuming to my two-part episode with Christy Harrison – “I started to wonder about how it looks to support this with my daughter. She just turned 9, and as near as I can tell doesn’t have food related issues yet. I’d like to help her eat for pleasure. At the same time I’m not available as a short order cook, and I want to make sure she explores foods she hasn’t experienced yet. She’s usually great about this).

So far we’ve talked about growing food, listening to your body, and eating so that you’ll be full – especially, if we’ll have an activity that involves not eating for a while. But, what can I do to support her to eat for pleasure? Thank you for reading and for your amazing podcast!”

Dawn Serra: Eating Momma! What a fantastic question. This is a question I wish my parents had asked themselves because my relationship with food and body probably would have been so very different, if they had. It’s a deeply counter-cultural question. And I love it!

There are a lot of mind leaps that we make when we start thinking about eating from a place of pleasure and having unconditional permission to eat whatever we want and intuitive eating. Eating for pleasure doesn’t necessarily mean eating everything thing that you want every single day for forever. An important part of intuitive eating and being a competent eater is considering the realities of our situation, and then making choices based on what’s true.

Dawn Serra: If I’m racing through the airport late for a flight, the best, most intuitive meal for me might be a burger and fries at the one restaurant that doesn’t have a line because having food is what I’m most worried about in that situation. I may pause and check in to see what would feel most nourishing or satisfying for me before I order, but if time is of the essence, I might not have that luxury.

If I am racing through the airport late for a flight, but starving, the best, most intuitive meal for me might be a burger and fries at that one restaurant that doesn’t have a long line. Because having food is what I’m most worried about in that situation. I might pause for just a second and check in to see what would feel most nourishing or satisfying for me before I order, but if time is of the essence, I may not have that luxury. And that’s intuitive eating. If you and your kid are racing to soccer practice and you’re going to get home really late, with little time for snacks, driving through fast food and sharing a meal in the car can be a nourishing, meaningful meal that the two of you share.

Dawn Serra: I love how you said, you aren’t a short order cook, and you obviously don’t have unlimited time or unlimited resources. That’s where Ellyn Satter’s Division of Responsibility comes in. If you aren’t familiar with Ellyn Satter’s work, I highly recommend pausing on this episode and immediately going to sign up for the Body Trust Summit right now because on Tuesday, March 17th – and only on Tuesday, March 17th – there is a 90-minute panel discussion with five experts who specialize in parenting with Body Trust, and you can watch it for free. The link to register is in the show notes for this episode or at dawnserra.com/ep298. If you’re listening to this on Sunday, on Monday, or on Tuesday, March 17th, you can watch this 90-minute panel discussion for free. You can buy it later if you want to, but free is good. And all of them talk a lot about food, meals, kids, and this Division of Responsibility.

The Division of Responsibility says that the adult is responsible for the what, when, and where of feeding. The what, when, and where of feeding. It’s your job to present as many varieties of food that you can. The child is responsible for how much and whether to eat of what you provide. So, you, as the adult, might choose 6pm as dinner time and you are going to prepare chicken, broccoli, mashed potatoes, and some sliced fruit. Then it’s up to your daughter to decide which of those foods she wants to eat and how much of each to eat. That is the Division of Responsibility.

Dawn Serra: Ellyn Satter’s work is phenomenal, and it is completely focused on how to raise competent eaters, which very few of us who are adults are competent eaters. What it means to be a competent eater is someone who knows how to listen to and trust their body, who understands that eating is situational and imperfect, and who makes the best choices that they can for themselves in a variety of situations based on their internal hungers and desires.

Then pleasure comes in around food in a number of ways. The most important thing I think adults can do for kids is to work on their own fatphobia and dieting mind so that they don’t bring that tension and stress, those stories to the table with their child. But beyond that, modeling pleasure is crucial in all aspects of our lives. Be vocal about what textures you love in food, what colors in the food that you’re most enjoying, what smells you like, what flavors you can’t get enough of. And vocalize some of your internal feelings so that they can hear what it’s like to listen to some of your internal cues.

Dawn Serra: The folks on the parenting panel that’s at the Body Trust Summit that is airing on Tuesday have lots of examples around this, and they also really speak at length about how tension has no room at the table during meals. Meal time should be all about connecting, being curious about their day, listening to their body, and being together. No food policing. No comments about what they’re eating, no comments about their body, no looks, no passive-aggressive sighs.

Another thing that you can do is ask about your daughters favorite things, and then make those more available when you can. Also, make some of your favorites more available, too, as a way to demonstrate that it’s not about guilty pleasure, or cheat days, or earning, but it’s about trusting yourself to enjoy things that you enjoy when you feel like enjoying them.

Dawn Serra: It can also be really helpful to point out when things you love are available, when you want them and when you don’t. That might sound something like, “Oh, my God. These cookies are my favorite. But I don’t really feel like having something sweet right now – I think I want something really fresh and crunchy. The next time I want something sweet, those cookies might be just what I want!” And being able to just talk through that very casually demonstrates there’s nothing wrong with wanting the cookies – “I can have these cookies whenever I want, but I just checked in with myself and what I want right now is something fresh and crunchy. Those cookies aren’t hitting fresh and crunchy for me. Maybe I’m going to reach for an apple, or a salad with my favorite dressing, or something else.”

Something that Hilary and Dana at Be Nourished like to ask clients is to think about a favorite food memory. To really pause and think about one of your most favorite meal experiences. Really get into the scene, the table, the room, the company, the conversation, the occasion, the flavors. Remember everything as vividly as possible. Often, what people discover is that while the food was delicious, it was actually the people they were with, the occasion, the atmosphere, the ambience, or the meaning that actually made that meal really important.

Dawn Serra: So how can meal times be more pleasurable as a whole? What would allow for more laughter, more connection, more joy? Maybe it’s a little bit more time. What color napkins or tablecloth would feel especially pleasurable? What plates bring joy? What time of day or what music in the background would make meals more fun? By creating this multi-sensory experience of pleasure and presence, you’re inviting your daughter into a relationship with her body, with her senses, and with food that includes meaning making, relationship building, and so much more.

Definitely check out Ellyn Satter’s work. That’s spelled E-L-L-Y-N, then S like Sam, A-T-T-E-R – Ellyn Satter. Look for Eating Competence and Division of Responsibility. Then also connect with the Be Nourished Body Trust providers who specialize in parenting and eating – people like Jennifer Houser, Meghan Cichy, Kristen Scher, and Lindsay Buchanan. All of their names are at the summit right now, so you could check that out. I have that link, so grab it and register for it. Tune in for that parenting panel. It’s amazing. If you hear this before the end of the day on Tuesday, March 17th and you want to know more about food and kids, you definitely want to check that out. 

Dawn Serra: I just want to say, EM, the fact that you even asked the question means that you are really trying to do right by your daughter. And that is so important. To even ask the question means you’re doing things differently. That gives me so much hope for both of you. So keep it up and thank you so much for listening.

That’s it for this week’s episode. Patrons, head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. In the next day or two, the bonus is going to be up probably on Monday or Tuesday of this week. I got to finish racing around doing more stuff for Body Trust Summit. And I will be back next week with my rich and deep chat with Leonore Tjia. Take care of you! Bye!

Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured in this week’s intro and outro. Find them a vocalfew.com. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses.

As you look towards the next week, I wonder, what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?