tl;dr Are sexual preferences changeable? What if someone really just doesn’t like short men or fat women? And what should a lesbian do if she wants sex with men?

First up – BE SURE TO SIGN-UP FOR THE BODY TRUST SUMMIT!!! It’s going to be incredible and challenging and so so so powerful. I’m not only a speaker but I’m also working behind the scenes with Alex to produce it for Be Nourished. Seven days of talks on healing our relationship with food and body? Yes please. Register, for free, now because it’s entirely online and kicks off March 11th.

Patrons who support at $3 and above, this week’s bonus is an erotica reading. It’s a hot Daddy/girl story that takes place in the woods with flogging and whips and all sorts of yumminess. Hear it over at patreon.com/sgrpodcast. Enjoy!

Also, I love your emails. Send your questions my way! You can use the contact form at dawnserra.com. Oh, and be sure to join the next Power in Pleasure course. It’s enrolling now and starts March 22nd.

On to the episode!

First up, I share some beautiful words by someone named jedidiahjenkins. I shared the post on the Sex Gets Real Facebook page. It’s all about friendship and love.

Next, I’m running an experiment. Do you love mail as much as I do? Want me to write you a letter? Well, I want to write to you! I made a handy form for folks who might like to receive a handwritten note from me. If that’s you, fill out the form and we’ll see what happens. The form, at least for now, will be open until early March. I have no idea how many of you will want this!

And then it’s on to your emails.

Paul wrote in asking about preferences. Can’t people just not like skinny guys or short guys or fat women? After all, he suggests our preferences are personal, so can’t people just not like or like certain bodies?

Strap in because we are doing a really deep and wide exploration of all the factors that impact our “personal” preferences.

As part of that exploration, I share some pieces from Imran Siddiquee’s TEDx talk, “How Hollywood Can Tell Better Love Stories”. I highly recommend checking out Imran’s talk and his writing and essays in general.

But this question begs of us – how can we all do better? Because it’s those with the most privilege that are most resistant to examining their preferences and stories, so I invite us into different ways of relating with each other.

I can’t wait for you to hear it.

Then, Curious Little Rabbit wants to know what she should do. She’s a lesbian who hasn’t had sex with men in 15 years, but lately she’s been having lots of fantasies about it. Should she find a guy and give it a try? If so, where can she find some options in Houston, Texas?

Be sure to tune in next week for Part 1 of 2 with my interview with Christy Harrison from the Food Psych podcast. We talk pleasure, desire, bodies, and her new book, “Anti-Diet”.

A huge thanks to the Vocal Few for their song in the opening and closing of the episode and to Hemlock for their awesome song “Firelight” which was used in this episode between questions.

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook and Dawn is on Instagram.

About Dawn Serra:

What if everything you’ve been taught about relationships, about your body, about sex is wrong? My name is Dawn Serra and I dare to ask scary questions that might lead us all towards a deeper, more connected experience of our lives. In addition to being the host of the weekly podcast, Sex Gets Real, the creator of the online conference Explore More, I also work one-on-one with clients who are feeling stuck, confused, or disappointed with the ways they experience desire, love, and confidence. It’s not all work, though. In my spare time, you can find me adventuring with my husband, cuddling my cats as I read a YA novel, or obsessing over MasterChef Australia.

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra, that’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships, from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love, as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics, and liberation. This is about the big and the small, about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing, and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.

Welcome to another episode of Sex Gets Real. I am very excited about one of the emails this week and where we get to go together. So I’ve got a hot chocolate in my hand, which is my favorite winter drink, a blanket in my lap, on this very cold rainy Vancouver day. I’m ready to spend the next little bit with you. The past few weeks I’ve been working around the clock— non-stop, every day, without a break, and honestly, I’m so pooped. But when the work is this good and this important and this satisfying, it’s worth it in the long run. I’m just so proud of so much of what we’re doing. 

Dawn Serra: Speaking of work, if you haven’t signed up for Be Nourished’s Body Trust Summit yet, DO IT! Seriously, do it now. Pause the podcast and go and do it. There’s a link in the show notes — it’s totally free, it’s entirely online. You can attend anywhere in the world and it is going to be so so important. I’ve seen all 24 of the talks and holy smokes!! If you want to relate to your body with more trust and compassion, if you want to find space around the ways you’ve survived the complexity of being in a body that changes, and if you want to learn and be with people who are interested in body liberation and who are asking big questions — then, this is it. This is where we’re going to do that in a major way.

So, click on the link in the show notes or head to dawnserra.com/ep295/. I’ll also have the link there along with all the other links you’ll hear me mention. It’s happening March 11th through the 17th. Again, it’s free just like my Explore More Summit. I’m actually one of the speakers and I’m speaking on Day 2 – all about pleasure. And, me and Alex are behind the scenes producing it all. Hilary and Dana from Be Nourished are two of my mentors and they have absolutely changed my life. They have changed the way that I work, they changed my relationship with my own body in such important ways, and I really would love for you to be there. The Facebook group is full of so many incredible people— people recovering from life-long eating disorders, people in fat and disabled and queer bodies, people who want to relate with themselves differently – many of them are parents and they see the impact that their parents’ relationships with their parents’ bodies had on them and want to be different. It’s really beautiful and I hope you’ll be there— The Body Trust Summit!

Dawn Serra: This week, it’s you and me, and your emails. Then, are you ready for this? I don’t know that you are. Next week is part 1 of a 2-part series with Christy Harrison of the Food Psych podcast. We are really taking our time to talk about pleasure, desire, sex, food, and her new book “Anti-Diet”, which I had a chance to read. It’s so good. It is so fucking good, the interview and the book. And I fully expect some up-in-my-feels emails from you about what Christy and I chat about. So that kicks off next week. 

For Patrons, for those of you who support the show at $3 per month and above, head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. Because this week, there is a new bonus and I am going to be reading an erotic story so that we can just be cozy, take it easy, settle in, and be inside of a sexy story together. It’ll be yummy and fun and I hope you enjoy it. 

Dawn Serra: Before we get to your emails, the other day, a friend shared a post about friendship and love that I really appreciated, and I wanted to share it with you so that you can be inside of it with me too. I put it on the Sex Gets Real Facebook page too. It’s by someone whose named jedidiahjenkins— I don’t know if that’s a made up screen name or their real name, but either way, it was the user name associated with this particular post. Jedidiah wrote: 

“I was asked last week, ‘who is your best friend?’ I don’t know. I don’t use language like that anymore. It doesn’t fit. I have friends that hold the keys to different doors of my personality. Some open my heart. Some my laughter. Some my mischief. Some my sin. Some my civic urgency. Some my history. Some my rawest confusion and vulnerability. Some friends, who may not be ‘the closest’ to me, have the most important key for me in a moment of my life. Some, who may be as close as my own skin, may not have what I need today. It’s ok if our spouses or partners don’t have every key. How could they? It isn’t a failure if they don’t open every single door of who you are. The million-room-mansion of identity cannot overlap perfectly with anyone. But I will say, my closest friends have a key ring on their hip with lots of keys, jingling.”

Beautiful and simple, isn’t it? I really resonated with this perspective, especially because I’ve been reflecting lately on how some of the people who used to have lots and lots of keys in my life now have far fewer; as distance, as our values have diverged, as our lives have changed. And I have new people in my life who I’m growing closer to, sharing more experiences with, that I’m learning from and those keys are growing— none of it is good or bad, but sometimes it is sad, sometimes it’s really exciting, and I really like that analogy of thinking about our million-room-mansions – that our lives and our identities, and how no single person could possibly hold all the keys to all those rooms. But hopefully, we have lots of people in our life that have many.

Dawn Serra: I mean, I really do hope that. I hope that all of us have many people in our lives who have keys to important parts of ourselves. We all need belonging and support, but I especially wish this for the straight men out there who were socialized inside of a system of toxic masculinity that devalued tender, vulnerable, nurturing relationships with other men, because of a fear of being perceived as feminine or gay. So many clients who come to me that are partnered with straight men share the burden that they’re under as the sole source of comfort, touch, validation, emotional processing, and support for their partner. It’s just so much for any one person to hold alone. I really do— I hope for all of us a rich variety of people that we feel supported, inspired by, connected to – all those wonderful keys.

Speaking of connection, I am going to be trying an experiment. I have absolutely no fucking idea how this is going to go. So you and I get to be inside the mystery together. But I have been hungry for writing more letters and doing things that, one, help me to really slow down and go offline. But also invite people around me to slow down. So, in the true spirit of that, I have created a little Google form – the link is at dawnserra.com/ep295 for episode 295. If you would be interested in receiving a handwritten note/letter/card from me sometime in the next few months, then you can go to that little form I made and share your details. Literally, it’s just for you to say “Yes! I would love a letter!” Then, you share your name and address, and as long as I don’t get thousands right away, my plan is to write and send a few notes each week. I have no idea what’s about to happen. I also have no idea what I’m going to say. I mostly want to get into the practice of sharing thoughts, feelings, asking questions, and being inside of it with you. I think that getting real mail can feel really special these days and I want more of that for all of us. 

It might be a few months before I get to everyone. The form is only going to be open until early March, just because I have no idea if 5 people or 500 people or 5000 people are about to go put their information in. But, if you’d like a note from me at some point, check that out. The link is at dawnserra.com/ep295 – and you can not only share your name, address, but one thing that you’d like to hear from me. It’s an experiment! Let’s see what happens don’t not put your information in because you’re worried too many people are doing it. There have been a couple of times in the past when I have done little Christmas card giveaways and things, and I’ve heard later that people were afraid there were too many people and they wouldn’t get it and so many people thought that. I only got a few dozen people so, please! If that’s interesting to you and you’re willing to share your information, nobody else will see it but me. Go do that. 

Dawn Serra: Speaking of writing to each other, I would love to hear from you for the show: your questions, your frustrations, your fears, your stuck places, your curiosities – send them my way. There’s a contact form at dawnserra.com. I really truly, genuinely love hearing from you. The emails you send me means so much. I really know it takes a lot of courage to share and ask some of the things you do. So let me know what you’re worrying about, wondering about, and I’ll do my best to field it on a future episode of the show.

One last thing before get to your emails. The next cohort of my Power in Pleasure online course is starting March 22nd – so that’s 4 weeks from when this episode drops. If you want to join me for this 5-week online class of exploring and understanding your relationship with pleasure, check it out. We talk about the stories we inherited from our families about pleasure, we talk about food and finding pleasure in our food, and the complications of that. We talk about bodies and embodiment, movement, sex and the erotic, boundaries, and how we can begin practicing a new relationship with pleasure. It’s incredibly deep for the 5-weeks that we do that. There are 6 live weekly group calls, which are really my favorite – we share such beautiful, tender, important things with each other in those calls— myself included. Every single time I run the course, I show up, I answer the questions based on how I’m feeling that day or the questions I’m asking, I show up on the calls and share about the things I’m inside of too. Because I’m still trying to figure it all out, just like all of you. So, if the Power in Pleasure course sounds like something that you might want to be a part of, details are at dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse— super easy. dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse. We’ll be starting that in just a couple of weeks. Check that out!

Dawn Serra: This first question for this week’s episode— we’re going to go really deep, we’re going to go really deep. We’ve got gelatinous fish, Hollywood films, hooking up, and a whole lot more – all to answer this one email. And also, towards the end of my response, we’re also going to talk about who asks these kinds of questions, because it’s really interesting. There’s a part of me that’s tempted to say, “Hey, if you’re a straight, white guy and you’re listening to this, I dare you to get to the end to listen to it all.” But, there’s also a part of me that’s like, “Well, if the rest of us can be inside these questions, then eventually all of us will be.” Needless to say, hold on to your horses. Because we are about to gallop into the depths of humanity. 

I also want to share, typically, when I’m asking your questions, I think about the question, maybe jot down a couple of notes and then just rift. But this one, as you’re about to hear, is really deep and wide. So I went and looked up a couple of statistics, I got a quote from a colleague of mine that I really love, and wrote down a couple of thoughts and questions to ensure that we have a lot of richness. So here’s the question, it’s from Paul, and Paul asked: 

“Hi Dawn. I am a white, middle aged, liberal man. Sexually liberal to all aspects of modern day sexual liberation and equality. I love that people today live in a more open society compared to when I grew up in the 80’s.” *A note from me I removed some derogatory slang here that Paul use to try to demonstrate how things have changed, but it didn’t need to be on the air. He goes on to say, “Thank goodness people have become more aware of the origin of terms like these – but we have more progress to make for sure! My question lies with preferences and society. Preferences are personal. I love people for who they are, I really do. But sometimes, sexual preferences can be like food. Not everybody likes all foods. Take liver for example! Do you think it’s bad if someone says or even thinks to themselves they do not like “red heads” or “very skinny” men, “short men”, or “fat chicks” or the idea that a hairy scrotum turns them off? I mean this in a serious way. Isn’t it OK to feel this way? Like if you do not like rare meat or even meat at all? Isn’t there a way to express this without being a societal disgrace? Serious question. Thank you, Paul.”

Dawn Serra: Hi, Paul. You clearly listened to episode 293 and I suspect that’s why you’re writing in. Thank you for asking a question what I know lots of people are asking themselves whenever they hear me asking questions like the one that I did in a previous episode recently. To answer this question, we are going to have to position ourselves first, not as individuals, but as parts of a collective. It’s important. Let’s talk about human beings really generally.

Human beings are wired for belonging. The oldest parts of our brain know that our survival depends on being with other human beings. Nearly everything we do, deep down, is driven by our need to belong. We’re also at this particular moment in time are all living inside of a variety of dominant systems that above all else, want to hoard and maintain power. These are systems that most of us were not taught about when we talk to school and growing up. I’m talking about white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy, ableism, fatphobia, colonialism. Systems that are none of us who are alive today created or consented to, but nonetheless, we either benefit from or suffer under, sometimes both at the same time, these systems.

Dawn Serra: Many of us that in the Western cultures have no idea how to understand, identify, or speak to, power— the power that exists in our lives and the ways that it flows between all of us. I think what’s so shitty is we are all impacted by this. These dominant systems are the actual water we swim in, the air we breathe. Some of us are more aware of them than others. Some of us are working to, frankly, overturn and dismantle these systems and institutions because they have not always existed. Capitalism has not always existed. Patriarchy has not always existed, which means that there’s a future that’s possible where they don’t exist once again.

So, why is it important when we’re talking about things like whether or not we like rare meat or certain kinds of bodies? Because as human beings, in our deep drive to belong and as people existing inside of a variety of systems and cultures, we are all biased. Those biases are rarely inherent, but I think the tricky thing is that a lot of our biases FEEL inherent. They feel like that’s just how we were born. 

Dawn Serra: I was thinking about your food question, “not everybody likes liver” and I was reflecting on my own life. I was raised in San Diego, California, in the United States to a white middle class family. I cannot tell you a food I absolutely do not like is lutefisk – which is this gelatinous lye-pickled white fish that’s traditional in Norway. It’s a big nopety nope for me— gelatinous lye-pickled white fish. Nope. But when I think about that, I’m also really aware that if I had been exposed to that early and often, especially as a part of really fun, merry family holidays like many Norwegian children are, I’d probably enjoy it, or at a minimum, I would tolerate it and have an emotional connection to it. Maybe it would’ve been my grandparent’s favorite food or my mom’s or the food that showed up in almost every potluck.

We can, of course, argue all day long about food preferences and where they come from, but so much of what we like or don’t like is because of the people around us, the culture around us, and the meaning we make from the events we’re a part of— what’s abundant, what’s scarce, what’s valued and treasured. And what others think about those things. All of that impacts our preferences. Of course, on top of that, our tastes change throughout our lives. But things are way more delicate and nuanced when we start talking about human beings.

Dawn Serra: The things most of us believe to be attractive or desirable are largely impacted by the fact that we’ve been told we’re supposed to find them attractive and desirable, and that message is beaten into us from every possible angle throughout our lives, every single day, everywhere we look. Because dominant systems and all of the people who have the most power make the most profit when we are collectively chasing and valuing very specific things. It helps them to continue to hoard power and money.

There have been so many studies done throughout the decades and a number of fields demonstrating that different kinds of bodies and shapes and sizes have been prized and valued in different cultures throughout time. Typically, the bodies that are most prized, at a particular time and a particular place, are those that the richest and most affluent have. When we are in a period where things are scarce and people are facing famine, it’s pretty common that the most powerful people who also typically have an abundance of food and access, the fetish/preference du jour is around curvier, heavier, or less thin bodies. Inside of capitalism and white supremacy, farer thinner bodies are prized. Under patriarchy, younger bodies are prized – they are easier to control. Holding that, we also have so many studies that show that… I mean, these are brief periods of time, so think about this in scale. We have so many studies that show similar findings that when people are exposed to images featuring a wide range of body sizes for just 20-minutes, their preferences for body size shift to be more open to a more diverse range of bodies, whereas people shown images of very thin bodies, and only very thin bodies, for that same time then show higher levels of disgust for non-thin bodies. So think about that, those are just 20-minutes.

Dawn Serra: I think another really important and accessible example is movies. Most of us who live in the U.S. and Canada or Western cultures, were raised on movies and we continue to enjoy them to this day – all kinds of movies. Imran Siddiquee is someone that I admire. I’ve had the pleasure of interviewing Imran before. Imran is a pop culture critic who does a lot of work around diversity in films. 

One of the reasons movies and TV shows are important here is because when we watch a movie or a TV show, we are essentially being asked to step into someone else’s world— that’s an experience of empathy. We feel into the experience of the characters that are centered and that begs the question, who gets centered? I looked, actually, at a TEDx talk that Imran gave a couple of years ago, it’s something that I’ve shared before in a number of places and you can see it. I’ll put the link at dawnserra.com/ep295. Here are a couple of things that Imran shares in that TEDx talk:

In 2013, only 15% of the protagonists in Hollywood films were women. That same year, of all the speaking lines in films put out by Hollywood, only a quarter were by women. At the time, the top five biggest films of all time Hollywood history featured either romantic or familial love stories like E.T., Gone with the Wind, Titanic. Imran goes on to share that of the top 25 romantic dramas of all time in Hollywood, only 4% featured a woman of color as the main love interest. That was one film – ONE. And, that woman of color in that one film is NOT the main character. 

Dawn Serra: Through the talk, Imran expands that out farther – if we look at the top 200 films of all time, in all genres, most of which feature love in some form or another as some part of the story – none of them feature a main protagonist that is a woman of color. None. So I pulled this quote from Imran’s talk, “Meaning in the top 200 film experiences in the history of Hollywood, we have never been asked to put ourselves in the shoes of women of color. So what does that do our conception of love?”

The data that I’m sharing is obviously a few years old, but when we think about how many fat bodies we’ve seen as the protagonist or as a hero, or trans bodies, queer bodies, disabled bodies, neurodivergent bodies, poor bodies, immigrant bodies – we start to realize pretty fast that the people we’ve been empathizing with again and again and again is straight white able-bodied young men. 

Dawn Serra: I found another report that said, “Only 4.5% of all 47,268 speaking or named characters across the past 12 years were Latino, as were a mere 3% of lead or co-lead actors.” And that impacts us. It impacts us that the movies we grew up on that formed so many of our foundational ideas around love and belonging centered on a very very specific kind of person. Who is wanted? Who is not? Who wins the girl? and what kind of girl is being won? Who is the sidekick? Who is in the background of the scenes in almost all films? Who is completely invisibilized all together from most of the media we consume?

The same goes with TV and books. I mean, if you’re on Twitter and follow any writers, you know the tragic levels of racism being revealed about the publishing industry right now. So most of us have been surrounded by images, characters, and stories that drill into us at the deepest levels that only certain bodies get to be heroic, desired, and loved. I want to add another layer to all of this. This ties into that belonging that I was talking about. 

Dawn Serra: Let’s say you start chatting with someone online and you hit it off. Like, really hit it off. Everything they say is super funny and charming, you feel super seen and understood. You’ve seen their pictures and they have an amazing smile and they seem full of life and joy. So you decide, “Let’s meet up in person. Let’s meet at a coffee shop.” Let’s say, you showed up at the coffee shop, ready for your date, to meet this incredible person that you’re so excited about— it just so happens that a group of your friends are also there. Maybe they’re studying or they’re going over a big project for work. In walks your date – and they have a visible physical disability. In that instant, what do you do?

My guess is that many of us, and I have been this person, so I’m also talking about past me, especially those of us who don’t have disabled people in our lives that we love, who haven’t done work around unlearning ableism, immediately look over to see if our friends see. Why? Because belonging drives so much of our behavior. What would happen if a celebrity like Brad Pitt showed up at the Oscars and his date was a super fat woman, that was not only several times as wide as him but taller? We all know exactly what would happen. Why do we know what would happen? Ask yourself that.

Dawn Serra: So many of us, especially those of us who feel insecure or lonely or who haven’t really started investigating toxic masculinity, gender roles, ableism, and all the other bullshit we’re swimming in, see the people we date as an important part of the belonging puzzle. What happens when a friend of yours starts dating someone who is seen as traditionally really attractive? You hear a lot of “good job, man!” and “how’d you land her? She’s way out of your league.” or “Dammmnnnnnnn”. 

We all know we’re being judged based on who we surround ourselves with. It’s why so many fat and disabled and trans people will tell you they’ve fucked some people that are considered really fucking attractive by traditional standards and that those same people they fucked would never date them publicly.

Dawn Serra: I’ve had that personally happen a number of times. Men who were super interested in fucking me and who, behind closed doors, were caring and playful and appreciative, and really good in bed— the first mention of going out to dinner together, they would disappear. So I wonder, how can any of us claim to have preferences around certain kinds of bodies when we are under such intense scrutiny, violence, and control? Do you really not like fat bodies or have you never bothered to have fat people in your life, so you don’t actually know how fucking awesome and smart and resilient and powerful fat folks can be? Do you really not like fat bodies or is it that you secretly dread the looks and the comments and the reality of walking down the street with a fat person or being seen at a restaurant with a fat person who’s eating? Do you really not find trans women attractive or are you afraid that people will make decisions about your sexuality and paint you as this flattened one-note version of yourself if you’re seen with a trans woman?

I think it’s a different side of the same coin, the way that we fetishize certain bodies. Do you fetishize Asian women, because they’re seen as exotic and foreign and you like the taboo of that? Do you like it because of what it must mean when people see you with an Asian woman? Or is it because you secretly way deep down believe, Asian women are easier to control, that they’re more meek, that they’re smarter because of their gender and race? Do you actually prefer men that are taller than you or are you so afraid of being seen as fat or large – things associated with masculinity and thus with being less desirable – that tall men reassure your sense of smallness and by extension, your value? I mean, really think about that.

Dawn Serra: None of us exist inside of a vacuum. Now, I do think, we could say, “What about in a post-liberatory world where we have smashed the patriarchy, dismantled white supremacy, ableism, transphobia, and capitalism. We’ve atoned for our colonization and done reparations, and now we exist in a world where we are much less impacted by these massive systems of oppression,” would our preferences be more true? Maybe, but we will still always be impacted by our need to belong and by what we’ve been exposed to, so even then is it really a preference or more of a lack of exposure or a fear of losing belonging?

We are all impacted by fatphobia. We are all impacted by ableism. We are all impacted by these systems of oppression. Part of the work for each and every one of us is that we have a responsibility to root these things out within ourselves. Because these systems of oppression live in us. Part of the work is exposing ourselves to a huge array of body types, cultures, genders, and abilities— we all have that means now because of technology. Not as a means of consumption or ticking a box, but because it genuinely brings more richness, compassion, and connection into our lives.

Dawn Serra: Most of the people I’ve met who are doing important work around liberation and oppression have social circles filled with a wide variety of people. And they really truly see the deliciousness in that variety and diversity. I want more of that for all of us. When I think about preferences and human beings, I don’t think there’s much about our outward appearance that we can’t find beautiful and intoxicating when we adore and appreciate the extraordinary power of what is inside of us. I do think we enjoy being around people who, maybe, make us laugh or maybe we like being around folks who think in ways that constantly surprise and delight us. Maybe we feel more drawn towards people who make us feel safe and held. But the outside? I just don’t know that it matters that much as we’ve been told that it does, when we have lots of people in our lives that we admire with bodies, genders, abilities, and cultures from a wide, diversite range of human experience.

I think, fundamentally, when we say we have a preference for certain external features or genitals or shapes or colors. Often, I think what we’re bumping up against is our desire for belonging, our fear of being cast out, our hope that others will see us as more worthy if we partner with certain kinds of people. I think the bottom line is that this is a complicated question. We’re talking about human nature. There’s many more layers than we’ve explored here, like the fact that we tend to see black boys and black girls as much older as they are. That doesn’t come from inside of us. That comes from the culture that we swim in and that has very violent implications for the things that we excuse away or ignore. I don’t think it’s as simple as comparing whole, complex human beings to our preference for certain flowers or flavors.

Dawn Serra: I also want to name that, I do think it’s really fascinating, that in the six years I’ve been doing this podcast and the many thousands of emails I have received, to date— I’m not saying it won’t change, but to date, it is always and only men who write in with a question like this one. And it’s always in the wake of my answering a question about preferences and bodies, and how we can change it – the ways that we view bodies and sexualize bodies. I think that’s important. Because it’s the most privileged among us who are most resistant to these kinds of questions. That’s because, to ask these kinds of questions shakes the very foundation that has offered us that kind of access and privilege in the first place. So it’s confronting and scary. Because if that’s true, what else is true? And that starts to shake the core of who we even think we are. 

Circling back to you, Paul. I don’t think we are bad people for feeling drawn towards certain kinds of bodies. It’s what we’re taught to do, it’s what we’re expected to do. We’ve been taught that that’s normal. And that there are very specific ways of looking at certain bodies— to fetishize thin bodies, young bodies, abled bodies. There are very real consequences for those of us who don’t conform to the dominant narrative. I mean, to be partnered with someone who is fat IS to witness the constant microaggressions. It’s to be whispered about and commented on. And we all know that. To be partnered with someone who is disabled is to begin to understand the depth of the despair and frustration of how inaccessible and rude and horrible people can be to folks with disabilities. To share ourselves with someone who feels unsafe in the world all the fucking time like so many Black and Indigenous people do, is to begin to feel into the ways we’ve been complicit in their harm.

It’s messy and it’s complicated and there is not an easy answer. So it makes sense that we want to try and say, “But I just prefer people who look a certain way.” But I really hope that we can all commit to doing better. That when we feel ourselves looking at say a muscular, thin, white body that fits the stereotypical narrative of who gets to be hot; when we catch ourselves appreciating that body, that we’ll also have practiced the skill of pausing in that moment and to begin to look at all of the other people in that space and to open to the beauty and the aliveness and the richness of the other bodies around us, too. Because we will continue existing inside of these systems for our foreseeable lifetimes, at least in a small scale or a large scale, which means we have to constantly practice. We have to constantly cultivate new ways of being. That enriches our lives and the lives of the people around us. But I don’t think it’s as simple as, “I just like thin bodies,” or “I just like tall bodies”. We don’t exist in a vacuum and we know the consequences of breaking from those dominant systems and paradigms, and a lot of us aren’t ready to give up our power and privilege to ask those questions and do differently.

Dawn Serra: I hope that helps give you lots to think about – all of us, really. I hope every single person listening, myself included, who has not done it already fills their social media with lots and lots of fat and disabled and trans and non-binary and queer and Indigenous and Black and Muslim and poor and neurodivergent people. Because there is beauty to be found and the only reason we can’t see it is because we’ve been lied to or because we’re scared of giving up our power. And I just want more for all of us.

Dawn Serra: This next email comes from Curious Little Rabbit with a subject line of “Lesbian who wants a guy?”

“Firstly, I need to tell you how I have discovered you on Spotify and I’m fucking in love with listening to your podcasts all the way in Houston, Texas! Thank you so much for being so open and bubbly about subjects most people would cringe over. You’re beyond brave for that, which in turn makes me feel brave for asking this to you. I am an identified lesbian but lately I’ve had MAJOR turn ons for men. I have been having strong fantasies about wanting to do some extremely dirty stuff with a few in particular. I haven’t had sex with a guy in 15 years and it scares the shit out of me. So I’m curious, should I take the leap and do it? Are there places I can go in Houston to try and figure out what I might be missing? Thank you in advance for all you do. <3 Curious Little Rabbit”

Dawn Serra: Hi, Curious Little Rabbit. Thank you for tuning in from Texas and for writing in. It sounds like you’ve been having some yummy, delicious fantasies. So I hope, at the minimum, you are enjoying all the pleasure that that’s bringing up for you. Long time listeners of the show will know that I used to be in a really similar place. In my early 20’s, I stumbled into a drag king meetup in Washington DC, and something awoke in me that I had no idea had been there, seriously. A few months later, I was in a relationship with a woman and we ended up being together for 3 years and I started identifying as a lesbian: I volunteered for lesbian collectives, I marched in the Dyke March at Pride, most of my friends at that time were lesbians. 

After that relationship ended, I dated some other women and queer folks. Then, I ended up in a 7-year relationship with a trans person. Towards the end of that relationship, after more than over 11 years of sex with people with vulvas, I started noticing that I was wanting to try sex again with cis men. And I was really fucking terrified. I was so worried that I would lose all my friends and my community – that they’d take my card away because I had heard people in the bars and at events saying such mean things about lesbians who slept with men and how unwelcome those women were in queer spaces after that. I was so scared that would happen to me – that I’d lose access to this space that had been so important to me for so long.

Dawn Serra: In the end, I had to renegotiate the ways that I’d been identifying and thinking about myself, and grew into my queer label. I honestly think, at this point, it was largely because of biphobia that I went towards the queer label because, at least in the circles that I was moving in and a lot of media I was consuming, bisexual was not really seen as something particularly valid, which is really shit. Biphobia certainly exists today and in lots of different ways. But I also, at the time, thought that bisexual meant you were interested in men and women in this very cis-binary way. Now, I know that bisexual simply means “I’m attracted to people that are the same gender as me and that are different genders than me,” thus the bi. So, that certainly fits with my experience of sexuality because I enjoyed people from all kinds of different genders and bodies. Then I ended up having this wonderful series of lovers who were cis men. I mean, in that time also, I had some really terrible sexual violence happen, but it was a journey, it was a process. And I was scared.

All of that is to say, our sexuality is fluid. For some of us, that fluidity is swaying back and forth in the same general space in the multi-dimensional galaxy that is sexuality, and then there are others of us who have traveled vast differences over the course of our lifetimes and changed trajectories. Nothing invalidates our prior identities or experiences we’ve had. It’s simply a matter of changing. I’ve discovered new things about myself over the course of different relationships and changing my relationship with myself, and all of those were valid just different. 

Dawn Serra: I also think we sometimes cling too tightly to labels, because we’re scared of losing belonging or community or we’re worried we’ll be called a fraud. I’ve also heard of people who really cling to a particular label because they don’t want their families to suddenly feel vindicated that that was a phase or something. So, it’s normal and real to be scared and worried about a changing relationship with something that we thought was pretty true. I think, in the end, it’s about your happiness and living your truth to the best of your ability. And sometimes our best is staying safe and not being out because of what’s going on with our life. 

For you, Curious Little Rabbit, it sounds like you’re eager to experiment, and to see if these fantasies about men are as delicious in real life as they are in your head. If you really do want to find out, I suspect it will be fairly straightforward finding someone who is up for helping you figure it out. Definitely play parties and dungeons can be great places to meet people and to negotiate around a variety of sexual activities. And I think if you’re going to do that, just be honest about where you are, what you want, and what you hoping for, then that gives people a chance to opt into the experience and for you to co-create something. 

Dawn Serra: The Houston area has a pretty big kink scene. I did a quick scan on Fetlife and saw several shows munches, which is like the kinky way of saying, “We’re just going to meet-up and talk.” So, I saw several munches for a variety of interests and sexualities. I imagine that if you connected with some of these groups, you’d find where the local play parties pretty quickly in the Houston area. You can also set up a profile on OK Cupid or Tinder or Bumble and just be really upfront about what it is you’re looking for, or join a Houston-based group on Fetlife and share what you want. Then, all you have to do at that point is screen folks really carefully, meet up with them before playing to see how things feel, and go from there.

I think it really comes down to being really clear about your boundaries, what it is that you want, and then going for it. It’s also OK if you start exploring the possibility of doing this with someone and realize the fantasy is super hot and you’d like to keep it that way.

Dawn Serra: One of the things that I would suggest for you, because you asked should you go for it is, taking some time when you’re not aroused to ask yourself some questions. Is this something I really want or do I like the idea or the fantasy of it more? How do I know it’s something I want? Where can I feel that in my body? Am I thinking my way into the truth or do I legitimately want it? If you were to meet a guy who was up for sex, what would that be like? Really imagine it, do you feel ready to assert your boundaries, to navigate the dynamics of being with a cis man? How will you check in with yourself? Do you feel comfortable stopping things if, at some point, you start feeling uneasy or uncomfortable, and taking up that space?

I think seeing how it feels to really imagine a flawed, imperfect, interested guy who has his own desires and feelings sitting across from you and saying, “Yes, I’m interested. Let’s do this.” Try to notice if your body is a yes, a maybe, or a no. Then, all you can do is leap! I mean, we don’t know if we’re going to like something until we try them, and when we do try it, sometimes we do love it and sometimes we don’t. We might regret it. We might wish it had remained a fantasy. And that’s OK. It doesn’t necessarily mean something went wrong or that we did something bad. Sometimes things are just disappointing or not what we imagined, and then we have that information and can move forward towards what we do want or something else that we suspect we want.

For you, I hope you take some time to feel into the possibilities and that if you discover that this really is something you’d like to try, you’re willing to take that leap and maybe be disappointed, then be safe, communicate a lot, and have fun. Because there’s certainly a pretty big community in Houston for you to connect with. Thank you so much for tuning in. Good luck and enjoy!

Dawn Serra: Well, everyone. That’s it for this week’s episode. I am now going to go record a little erotica reading for patrons. So, head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. That bonus should be up in the next day or two. Don’t forget – next week is going to be part 1 of my 2-part interview with the amazing, incredible Christy Harrison. So prepare to be blown away because we had so much fun recording that. Until next time, I’m Dawn Serra. Bye!

Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured in this week’s intro and outro. Find them a vocalfew.com. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses.

As you look towards the next week, I wonder, what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?