Your pleasure matters.

1. Join the July cohort of  my 5-week online Power in Pleasure course. Check out details and enroll at dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse.

This week’s episode is just me and you.

First up, some updates from the survivor pod around Franklin Veaux and hearing from more of the women. Definitely check out polyamory-metoo.com and Aida Manduley’s twitter thread for some good stuff. You can also check out the Reddit thread with the comments I read here.

Centering the stories and experiences of the women Franklin harmed is the most important thing, so if you do check out the updates from Franklin’s folks, just remember that so far none of their updates have been from folks who understand trauma-informed work or alternative justice processes. They’re actually quite harmful.

Patreon supporters, this week I’m watching the new Vex Ashley and Four Chambered Heart erotic film and narrating what I see. It’s fun and silly and by request. If you don’t yet support the show, every $1 means so much. If you support at $3 per month and above, you get access to weekly exclusive content (and there’s a huge backlog at this point!). Suppor at $5 per month and above and help me field listener questions. Details and bonuses are at patreon.com/sgrpodcast.

If you want to check out the article on incels and plastic surgery, I mentioned. You can check that out on The Cut.

Now on to your questions!

Alyssa wrote in because her fiancé won’t talk during sex, but Alyssa thinks talking during sex would be super hot. How can she encourage him to talk more?

Talking during sex can be super hot and super fun, and it can also make pleasure really difficult for some folks. Let’s explore that dance of needs together.

Fabulously Fem emailed me asking to hear more about cross dressing on the show and if I think dolls are ethical.

I promise to have a crossdressing expert join us soon, but in the meantime you might want to check out Kink Academy’s awesome videos on crossdressing for those who are interested.

That’s it for this week’s episode. Have questions of your own you’d like featured on the show? Send me a note!

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook and Dawn is on Instagram.

About Host Dawn Serra:

[divider style=’left’]Listen and subscribe to Sex Gets Real

1. Listen and subscribe on iTunes
2. Check us out on Stitcher
3. Don’t forget about I Heart Radio’s Spreaker
4. Pop over to Google Play
5. Use the player at the top of this page.
6. Now available on Spotify. Search for “sex gets real”.
7. Find the Sex Gets Real channel on IHeartRadio.

Hearing from you is the best

Contact form: Click here (and it’s anonymous)

Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra. That’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics and liberation. This is about the big and the small about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.

Dawn Serra: Hey, you! Here we are with another episode: Episode 264. Wow. That number is just hitting me literally right now. 264 episodes. Holy smokes. And some of you have been with me the whole time. I cringe at some of those earlier episodes. But that’s okay. That’s the point. We get to grow and change together. This week is a little update on the polyamory’s #MeToo moment – which is what it’s being called by some folks following our three part conversation that just wrapped up with Eve Rickert, Samantha Manewitz, and Aida Manduley. Then, I’m going to answer some of your questions, which I’m super excited about. Some really great ones have come in over the past couple of weeks. So send me more. But, before we cruise into the episode, I wanted to say thank you to those of you who have already signed up to be a part of the July cohort for my online course: Power in Pleasure. I was so excited to see some of you signing up and joining. It’s going to be an incredible time together.

For those of you who are interested, it is a five week course that’s completely dedicated to exploring your pleasure. We unpack stories you’ve inherited around pleasure, who got to experience pleasure in your household growing up, we explore our senses and how they connect us with our bodies and what it means to be sensual, we explore satisfaction and enoughness, and how we can be in relationship with our hungers and desire. We dive in to the erotic and sex. And then we spend time on boundaries and how your pleasure actually connects you more deeply with your power. It’s primarily for folks who are either assigned female at birth, who are gender non-conforming, who are just coming out of eating disorder recovery, and/or people who have started exploring ways to break up with diet culture. The April cohort has been magical. We’ve been having such an incredible experience: the group calls are soul food, the conversations we’re having, the feelings that we’re bumping up into. It’s so nurturing and so supportive and so vulnerable. I wanted the course to have an impact, but I was really not expecting the kind of depth and vulnerability that everyone is showing.

If you want to join us for the July iteration of Power in Pleasure, it kicks off July 22nd, five weeks – almost entirely online with weekly group calls and you can check out all the details plus how to sign up, and the pricing. There’s tiered pricing depending on your financial availability. If you go to dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse. That’s dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse. And I would love to see you there.

Dawn Serra: Also, did you know you can support the show on Patreon? I am so grateful. Every single dollar – and I’m being really literal when I say this: every single dollar has such a big impact on my being able to keep this show. Because finding consistent advertising is so hard, especially in this space. It costs me a lot of money and a lot of time to put this show on every single week, week in and week out, for all of these years. So if you really like the show, whether it’s a dollar a month or $3 a month or more, it actually matters a lot to me, and I’m grateful for every single dollar that you contribute.

If you support at $3 a month and above, you get access to exclusive weekly content that you can’t hear anywhere else or see anywhere else. There’s all kinds of fun stuff in there. If you support at $5 a month and above, you not only get the bonus content every week but you can also help me field listener questions. So if you want to try your hand at some advice giving, that might be a fun tier for you. Everything is at patreon.com/sgrpodcast. For Sex Gets Real. SGR podcast.

This week’s bonus for $3 and above Patreon supporters is by request – Someone asked me if I would do something like watching an erotic film and narrating it, so that’s what I’m going to do this week! A brand new Four Chambers erotic film by Vex Ashley just dropped yesterday and I have not seen it yet. So I thought, “That could be a really fun bonus.” I’m going to watch it for the very first time and talk through everything that’s happening and what I’m seeing in real time. It’s about 12 minutes so we’ll see what happens, and that’s going to be the bonus this week which I think will be really fun and different. On to this week’s episode.

Dawn Serra: I want to start by speaking to a few updates in the processes that are happening around Franklin Veaux and the women who have been coming forward about the experiences that they’ve had over multiple decades with Franklin. The thing that I think that we all should start with is there have been interviews conducted with some of the other women who were in relationship with Franklin, beyond Eve. A journalist named Louisa – and I’m guessing on the last name. I might be getting it wrong. But, Louisa Leontiades. I’m guessing. She’s a journalist. [She] has conducted a series of interviews with three women and there is a fourth entry by a fourth woman who did a whole bunch of sharing her experiences via email. And she has allowed those emails to be crafted into a testimony of her experience with Franklin.

Hearing their voices, especially considering how over all these years, Franklin’s version of the story has been what’s centered, what’s created profit, and fame, and popularity, and name recognition. And it’s time for us to hear from the women. What gets revealed as you read these interviews or listen to these interviews is just how slippery a slope it is when it comes to emotional abuse and entitlement, and control and manipulation. How easy it is to find yourself all of a sudden so deep in an unhealthy dynamic. I want all of us to spend more time really thinking about the ways that we show up in relationship, the ways we deal with power, what we’re communicating, what we’re withholding, and the impact that that can have. So you can check out all of these interviews, and I believe there’s more coming soon so bookmark it, at polyamory-metoo.com. The URL is polyamory-metoo.com. And that link will be at dawnserra.com/ep264/ for episode 264, if you just want to head there and then click through on multiple links.

Again, while all of their stories are about Franklin, I really hope that as we read these stories, that we think about the culture that enabled and normalized his behaviors, that we also think about the communities – including our participation in this – that accepted his version of the story while invisibilizing the women and the ways that culturally, we do that so often especially around celebrity culture. Even the ways that we may be doing some of the things that the women are talking about ended up really causing them harm. Because we all have the potential to cause harm. We all caused harm already, we will all cause harm down the road – that’s just what it means to be human, and the more that we can learn how to really grapple with what that means, so that we can not only prevent harm but also have better ways for dealing with it when it happens. I think the better off we’re all going to be, the healthier our relationships can be, the more deep and meaningful they can be.

Dawn Serra: What gets revealed as you read all of these stories by these four women, in addition to Eve who we’ve heard from, is how much it hurts when someone is withholding information or not disclosing really important pieces of information. And how painful it is to realize you didn’t actually consent to what happened because you only had a piece of the story. The attempts to control and to basically bypass important conversations and questions, the way that Franklin would frequently twist questions back around without ever being upfront about what he was doing or why he was doing it. And the subtle gaslighting, how subtle it is, the ways these women were made to question themselves and each other. So let’s start talking about these things, it’s the only way that we can start doing better.

We can’t do better by keeping these things in the dark and pretending that they don’t happen. So head to polyamory-metoo.com. Me too, as in T-O-O, to check out those stories. There was also a post on Reddit in the polyamory subreddit about some of these updates from the women. And some really great conversation unfolded in that thread so I wanted to share some of it here.

A user named @throwawaythatfast wrote, in part – this is just a part of what they wrote, “There seems to be clear abusive situations there, such as coercion for group sex, verbal violence, yelling, and taking financial advantage of partners. And that’s enough to have a case for abuse. But I genuinely ask, how much of all that was told can’t be chalked up to just being a shitty partner? I mean, I think abuse is a very serious matter and we should not conflate those two things or mistake one for another. Being bad at communication, cold emotionally, not respecting of someone’s pain, personally irresponsible, behaving badly after a break-up… Those are things that, in my opinion, may speak to Franklin’s inadequacy as a good partner. Not things I’d ever justify or endorse and I’ll always try to avoid those bad practices in my relationships, but can we really call that abuse? A lot of the narrative seems to center on those things. Maybe I’m wrong, and if you disagree, please politely argue against what I’m saying. I’m open to changing my mind.”

Dawn Serra: Someone named @chelseadoeslove commented in response to that. And the response that @chelseadoeslove wrote was fantastic so I wanted to share it for all of us to just think about as we continue to really marinate on those three conversations that we’ve just had on the podcast. So Chelsea writes: “I totally hear what you’re saying here, and this is really good perspective. I would like to take it one step further, though, and suggest that perhaps shitty partnership needs to be examined further when it constitutes an abuse of social power. I think that oftentimes, women are on the receiving end of “shitty partnership” and that may suggest there’s a broader, systems-based conversation to be had about why these behaviours have, until now, seemed acceptable and something women are dealing with – specifically and in more compounded ways, in the context of non-monogamy. Being a shitty partner is unacceptable, to me, in any relationship. The fact that here, there were patterned ways over many different partnerships that one person was shitty, should be examined based on who he is and his platform of influence. The fact that this person happened to write a book about his version of these events which paint them as justification of his redemption arc is exploitive. The fact that he also positions himself as an expert on alternative relationships and abuse in relationships is disingenuous. He has informed a movement of alternative relational politic, and as a result of that influence, many women are experiencing emotional violence in their non-monogamous relationships with him. I have seen it. I organize non-monogamy community, and I have listened to the women wring their hands about what to do about their “shitty” partners, as if it’s their fault or responsibility to make it better. We are being exploited for our care labour, and our social engineering in order to make these complex relational webs function, and it’s not fair or just. The way Franklin has behaved in his relationships has informed what he has taught others to do in theirs, which translates to seeds of undermining, coercion, gaslighting, and manipulation baked right into the movement of non-monogamy. It’s patriarchy in multiplication by how many man-type partners one woman may have.”

So @throwawaythatfast replied, “Those are great points and they make things clearer! Indeed, it’s important to look at those things from a systemic point of view, which illuminates how, apparently, non-abusive things can actually represent really big underlying problems. Thanks for the explanation!”

Dawn Serra: Someone else in the thread said that – essentially what they said is that it seems that all these women are just really bad at polyamory, which is such a reductionistic perspective of the such vast experience. But Samantha Manewitz replied, “This isn’t about women being bad at poly, but falling victim to tried and true manipulation tactics and undue influence. You can see this in high control groups like Scientology, OneTaste, as well as abusive family dynamics.”

Samantha provided then in the thread two links that I’m going to share about abusive family dynamics and a podcast that talks all about systems of control. So if you’re interested in really unpacking some of this control and power, and emotional abuse that we see playing out specifically in this situation but also in so many others, I’ll have those links if you go to dawnserra.com/ep264/ . There, also, if you go to dawnserra.com/ep264/, you can also see a Twitter thread that Aida Manduley wrote about an update from Franklin’s “accountability pod.” Now the update is something that I am not going to link to. But if you want to read the – and I use the word update so loosely – but if you want to read the update, Aida has an untraceable link in their Twitter thread. I think it’s important that we use that link because we don’t want all kinds of traffic going to this really terrible update. And we should really be centering the women’s experiences and voices above all else. What Aida has to say about this update is important and if there’s something you’re going to check out, please let it be the women’s stories. Because their voices deserve to be heard.

So, anyway, this update from this – I can’t even use the word accountability person that claims to be representing Franklin – is horrific. It’s actually pretty violent towards the people who are coming forward. So I’m going to share a little bit about what Aida had to say on Twitter and then you can read the whole thing in its entirety. So Aida says, “An hour before I hop the plane to Cuba, I see a post from Franklin Veaux’s supposed ‘accountability pod’ which is, A, not a RJTJ pod at all,” So not a restorative justice or a transformative justice pod at all, “Dripping in overt and covert contempt, especially towards social justice work and survivors, and hyperbolic as hell.” Aida goes on to say, “It’s now more than abundantly clear that the work on Franklin’s end is not being done in any semblance of good faith or attempt at listening. It’s using some of the language of community accountability work without any of the substance. It’s tropes are tired. It’s language is skewed towards the criminal-legal, and it is no way prioritizing community, kindness, collaboration, transparency, restoration, or any of the other values the folks involved in the survivor team put forth.”

Dawn Serra: Please read this thread from Aida because it’s amazing, everything from Aida is and well thought out; and spend some time really getting to know the women’s stories, especially if you have, in the past, read Franklin’s book The Game Changer. Because the main “character” or person that he’s writing about in that book is one of the four who have come forward to really share what her experience was of the relationship with Franklin – and it’s not good. It’s not good.

I want us to be able to continue to learn from what’s happening in this process so that we can all really start thinking about alternative models of accountability and justice – both in our most personal relationships. How can we be more accountable to each other in our most intimate relationships knowing harm is inevitable? How do we repair? How do we hold each other accountable from a place of deep love and generosity? How can we also do this in our larger communities? Because when our communities can’t do this well, lots of harm happens. That’s how we have rapists, and sexual assaults happening in communities, and then people get ostracized. There has to be a better way.

There’s far too much abuse happening, far too much harm that’s totally normalized or even denied like this “update” from Franklin’s team. And we can do so much better. There’s so many different ways of being with each other, and acknowledging harm, and tending to our relationships. I just really want that for us all. So let’s continue learning together and being uncomfortable and not knowing together because that’s part of this.

Dawn Serra: On another note, I read a fascinating article this morning that I just wanted to talk about a little bit. It’s in The Cut and the title is, “How Many Bones Would You Break to Get Laid?: “Incels” Are Going Under The Knife To Reshape Their Faces And Their Dating Prospects”. The link to the article is at dawnserra.com/ep264/. All of the resources from this episode is there.

I just want to start, if you aren’t familiar with the term Incel, it means involuntary celibate. It’s – primarily – though not entirely – cis men who feel really angry and isolated that the sex they feel entitled to but aren’t receiving. A number of mass murders that have happened over the past decade have been committed by self-proclaimed Incels and even inside of Incel threads to this day, there tends to be a romanticizing of these mass murders. Because they see it as this really powerful “fuck you” to all of the people who have rejected them or who they perceive as being the kinds of people that would reject them.

I think what’s important is that the heart of Incel culture is deep grief, deep loneliness, deep abandonment – And exactly what Aida was talking to last week about these false promises that white supremacy offers us around having easy lives and if we do X, Y, and Z then we’re guaranteed certain types of success and access, and relationships, and that’s not how it works. But when we bump up against the realization that what we thought we were promised isn’t actually happening, there can be a lot of anger.

Dawn Serra: Incel culture is deeply informed by toxic masculinity and sexism – And it’s another symptom of a really broken system. One that denies young boys and men access to their feelings, a chance to practice communicating openly different bodies and validating different ways of being in a body, which bumps up against desirability politics and also diet culture. And how toxic masculinity trains us that “men” are supposed to look a really specific way in order to be “real men.”

This new article that just came out explores a new trend among Incels of doing some pretty extreme, in some cases, plastic surgery to make themselves look like Chads which is some of the phrases you’ll find inside of Incel community – that is men who tend to be white, who are almost always cis and able bodied, and are very traditionally attractive inside of patriarchy and toxic masculinity. So they’ve called these men ‘Chads.’ Incels are getting jaw implants, shoulder widening surgeries, brow implants, testicle implants, nose reshaping, hair transplants, and a number of other procedures to try and give them a more “traditional” masculine look that’s aligned with what we see mainstream male models look like or Chads.

What’s interesting is Incels loathe Chads. They hate them, who they hate even more is the women who date Chads. But there’s this trend now of getting plastic surgery to become the thing they claim they hate. I think that reveals so much about what’s really going on – that there’s this deep desire to be accepted. There’s a deep desire to feel a sense of belonging, a deep desire to feel loved and validated, and feeling like their physical appearance is the only thing preventing them from finding those things creates a great deal of friction. Of course, part of it is true. All of us have been indoctrinated into desirability politics and the bullshit that is diet culture and the gender binary. Women can be ridiculously mean towards men who don’t look a certain way or who’s genitals don’t look a certain way or perform a certain way. The ways that women police men is as toxic as all the ways that men police women.

Dawn Serra: Now, the power and the access to resources and all the other things is imbalanced. But everyone suffers inside of these systems. I think what’s interesting is you can have all the plastic surgery in the world to completely transform your outer self. But if you still have a deep hatred and distrust and loathing of the very women that you’re going under the knife in order to impress, no matter how pretty you are, most women are going to pick up on that hatred and that loathing and run the other way.

The other thing that I just find fascinating is, think about how many women – and I know I’m talking in a very binary way because trans folks and non-binary folks and agender folks experience tremendous violence around their bodies. But what I find so interesting is that for centuries, in a variety of cultures especially in colonized cultures and Western-European cultures, women have been expected to alter their bodies in order to fit the male gaze. They’ve had ribs removed, they’ve done foot binding, they’ve gone through all kinds of incredibly painful alterations to body and wearing deeply uncomfortable clothing in order to be found desirable. What I find so interesting is that Incels are now in a place where they’re trying to change their physical form in order to be found wanting and deserving – And instead of feeling a solidarity and a deep understanding for what women have been going through, they continue to hate women and vilify women in so many ways.

Dawn Serra: I think it’s a really interesting thing and I want us to be able to hold both accountability and compassion around these things. I think it’s important for us to note that actual terrorism has been waged by Incels, and that is real, and we can’t escape from that or make that smaller. It happens. The violence is so real. And, I also want us to get better asking about, what are the cultural conditions that lead to so many people, one, feeling entitled to sex to the point that it causes hatred and violence and also what caused the conditions of so many people feeling utterly left behind? Anger is often a mask for grief and fear, and shame. When we aren’t raising kids who are really emotionally aware and emotionally intelligent, many people especially folks who are men default to anger because it’s easier to be mad and more socially acceptable to be mad than to be sad or scared or ashamed.

I think the article is definitely worth checking out because there’s lots of really important questions that we can ask ourselves about emotional abuse, accountability, and a culture that breeds such disdain and fear. Please go check it out and let me know what you think. The link is, again, at dawnserra.com/ep264/.

Dawn Serra: Alright, let’s dive into your questions. Alyssa wrote in with a subject line of “Quiet Sex”. The email says, “Hi! I’m a new listener and it’s a pleasure listening to your show! My fiancé and I have been exploring new sexual experiences and it’s been wonderful. But I would like to bring in more conversation to sex. He is very quiet, and has admitted feeling like he doesn’t know where to start. How do I encourage him to talk more during love making, without pushing him to be uncomfortable? Are there resources to help me?”

Alyssa, thank you so much for listening to the show. I love that you are having new sexual experiences with your fiancé and that it’s been wonderful. What a wonderful thing to start with. And I love that you are feeling into your desire around what would feel hot for you which, in this case, happens to be more conversation during sex. When I read your email, all this stuff came up for me because so many of us have really different experiences around sex and talking. And how, for some people, it can turn them on so much and for other people, it can actually inhibit pleasure.

I have found some language around myself but what really solidified my personal experience was, I heard sex educator, Allison Moon talking about this once and thought, “Oh my god. That’s totally me too.” And it gave me some language. So what happens for me is when I’m really aroused, and it’s getting really hot and heavy during sex like the pleasure is amazing, I can feel an orgasm maybe building – The part of my brain that makes coherent speech completely goes offline. I sink way into my body and I really kind of swim in and surrender to the pleasure that is the sensations that I am feeling, the feeling of my skin, the throbbing of the blood in different parts of my body, smelling our bodies and our sweat. While I will vocalize during those times, it’s more like incoherent vocalizations of intense pleasure and not deliberate conversation. But I’ve been with partners who love dirty talk during sex. And they’re saying all kinds of things and asking questions, and for them, it’s super getting them off in hearing me say super filthy things or talk about how good it feels, is part of their pleasure. But sometimes those very questions pull me so far up into my head that my pleasure goes way down.

Dawn Serra: As I think about your questions, Alyssa, I think about this balancing act. I can really enjoy dirty talk and talking during sex in all sorts of situations but my best pleasure usually happens when I stop trying to make words or make sense, and I just surrender to my body and my pleasure. It just takes over. I want for all of us to be able to hold all of these experiences as being true and delicious at the same time in the ways that we can dance in this space. One person might get really revved up by talking and asking questions and hearing sexy things coming out of their partner’s mouth, while another person finds that having to think and form sentences actually reduces their access to their pleasure and their body. Because using the executive part of their brain is using resources, essentially.

So that might be a place to get really curious for you, Alyssa, with your fiancé. Your fiancé might be someone who prefers not to have to think and talk during sex because it allows him to really be in his body and feeling all those yummy things. It also might just be that he has no idea what to say and he feels really awkward, and so he doesn’t do it. I think that’s also the case for a lot of us.

One of the things that made me think about – I genuinely don’t remember the first person who shared this technique with me. I’ve heard it from so many sex educators over the years, I’ve shared it myself so many times. I don’t know if there’s an originator or it’s just lots of people all came into the same language and it’s just gotten shared so much that now it’s pretty common knowledge. But, one of the easiest things to do when you want to talk during sex and make it super sexy is to just narrate what’s happening. Another technique is, leading up to a sexual encounter, talking about all the things that you want to have happen, then during sex really describing what you’re feeling and what is happening. And then you can even really extend the life of it and after a sexual encounter, being able to reflect on all the thing that happened and why you enjoyed them. You can get a lot of mileage out of those two techniques.

Dawn Serra: An example of just narrating what’s happening – now, of course, your tone of voice, your body position, your body language, your facial expressions – all are going to feed into whether or not this feels sexy or not. But you might be able to say things like, “The warmth of your body pressed to mine feels so good.” Or, “I love feeling your tongue on my neck. It’s so wet and warm. I’m getting goosebumps and that’s making my nipples hard.” I mean, literally just narrating the yummy, sexy pleasurable things that you’re feeling can be a really simple way to talk during sex and to explore that dirty talk space. Using a nice tone of voice and being really present with it also is part of what makes it really hot. And then, of course, as I mentioned, narrating what you want to have happen can be such a delicious way to get each other aroused whether it’s via text or over dinner or while you’re making out. Being able to say things like, “I can’t wait to unzip those pants. I’ve been dreaming about how your skin tastes. I want to get you out of those clothes. I desperately want you to peg me.” Whatever it is. Building that anticipation can be really hot, too, and then doing the same thing afterwards and reminiscing.

So, if I were you, Alyssa, I’d start by asking your fiancé what kinds of experiences they have talking during sex. Do they think it would be something that is sexy or does it actually take away from his pleasure? You two can even take turns trying lots of sex with noises but no words, trying sex with some words, and narrating your experiences. Turn it into a really playful lab thing. Maybe some of the times, you’re just feral and primal and grunty. And other times, there’s little instructions and questions. Also, asking him to describe what he’s feeling as you touch him might be a really good way to begin. He doesn’t have to then dream up elaborate scenes or make anything up on the spot. Being able to just really focus on telling you what he feels can be a way to practice finding that voice.

I think it’s also really important for us to all remember that a lot of us have been shamed in the past for either not knowing how to do something or if we had a partner that was really sexually immature and insecure. Sometimes what happens is, we get shamed by them for not doing something the way they imagined it. So, sometimes that takes multiple tries and lots of compassion for us to build up a sense of safety for being able to not get everything right and for being able to open up, try new things, make mistakes. I think it’s less about encouraging him to do a thing and more about really genuinely asking about his experience, and being super curious. How do language and words impact his experience of pleasure? What has he done in the past? Has he ever fantasize about anything else? And letting him know directly, “I would really love to experiment with talking during sex and trying out some dirty talk because I think it’s really hot. And would you be willing to just try some things out with me? We’re totally not going to get it right. It’s probably going to get awkward, but can we just try some different things to see what feels sexy?”

Dawn Serra: I think it’s also really helpful for all of us to come up with a list of words that we both find really sexy and words that tend to turn us off. Some people really like the use of the word ‘cock’ while other people like ‘dick’ and other people like other words. If you’re in the heat of the moment, and someone really hates it when their cock is called a dick, that might be a thing that’s important to know before you get in and start using words.

Another example is if someone just called me a slut out of the blue. I probably wouldn’t feel really turned on by that. I’d probably want to ask some questions: who is this coming from? What’s the context? What do they mean? And that would lead me in all kinds of places that weren’t sexy. But if I’m in the middle of super hot, intense sex with Alex, who I know deeply respects me and loves me so much, and he pulls that out and starts saying slut or asking me if I’m a slut, it’s probably going to feel pretty hot. So the context of these words really matters. Once both of you have an idea of some of the words that you find hot, you can start playing with those and trying them out during sex to see what feels natural. Because I think the key, in sexy dialogue is finding language and words that feel like you. Not some performative version of what your partner thinks you should sound like or copying what you’ve seen in porn because you don’t know what else to do. Finding your voice and what you feel sexy saying is crucial, and it might be things that other people haven’t thought about. But what would feel most like him? How do you play inside of the place?

One last thought, that I think can make this space a little bit easier is it can be really difficult to have someone just come to you and say, “What are words that you find sexy?” Because then, often this sense of, “What if I say the wrong thing? What if I say something and they don’t like it?” And we start overthinking and being worried about shame. It can be really helpful, maybe, to watch some feminist porn together and see what language and words are featured in some of the films, and then the two of you talk about it afterwards, “Wasn’t it really hot when this happened? Is that something that you would find hot if we did it? Or what was the hottest thing that got said in that video?” That’s a pretty low stakes approach because it’s not directly about you, it’s about this third party that’s doing something and then you discuss it. Also, reading erotica to each other not only gives you a chance to connect around doing this really sexy thing but you actually get a chance to say sexy words out loud. But someone else wrote, “You didn’t have to come up with the sexy phrase. You didn’t have to think of how to say it. You’re literally just reading it. And you can practice different tones and intonations, different body language.” That can be a way to figure out what things feel the most to me when I say them, what feels the most fun and sexy.

Dawn Serra: So I hope that gives you some things to discuss and to try, and to explore so that the two of you can find your version of sexy talk, and what feels good for you both so you can maximize pleasure. Because that’s what we want. Thank you so much for listening, Alyssa, and for writing in. I loved this question and I hope there is much delicious sexy talk coming up for you in your future.

Next up, Fabulously Femme wrote in with this: Hi Dawn, I am a straight white guy and I love your podcast. So a little back story. Back in grade school, I was bullied relentlessly and had 0 friends. That lead me to crossdressing somehow. I was not the best looking kid and I wore glasses. When I dressed up back then I internalized this feeling of beauty because inside I felt as though I did not belong. When I got to high school, I had a total of 4 friends and I stopped dressing up. Then I moved to go to school and being alone, I picked it up again. I’m still dressing up and I have some very nice lingerie and dresses. The more frilly, the better. I know that you have done a lot of shows about trans people but what about crossdressers that are not trans? Can you address crossdressing? Also, why do women’s clothing feel so great on my body? And lastly, what is your take on sex dolls? Are they ethical? I have one and I love to dress her up with me as well. Thank you, I hope to hear this on the show. Best wishes, keep going. Fabulously Femme.

Thank you so much for writing in, Fabulously Femme, and for listening to the show. I would love to have an entire episode dedicated to crossdressing at some point in the near future. But I did just want to take a couple of minutes to share a little bit, for now, for anyone who’s curious. I also really want to say I am not a crossdresser and I don’t have much experience with people in my life who are. So, I do not consider myself an expert and everything you’re going to hear is based on either conversations I’ve had or research I’ve done in the past but not from lived experience per se. Part of that is because a lot of people in my life live with a lot more gender fluidity, so even the cis men in my life often are more fluid in the ways that they dress and what feels good for them. But it’s not a thing that they layable or see as different. It’s just how they express themselves because they’re really comfortable in that gender expression.

Dawn Serra: So in the future, I really want to feature someone’s voice who is a crossdresser. But in the meantime, there’s a couple of things I thought we could just note. The first is, even though Fabulously Femme found that crossdressing might be linked to being bullied or being lonely, crossdressing’s actually really common. It doesn’t necessarily have to have anything to do with a traumatic experience or isolation or a history of being different. There are lots of people who crossdress for lots of reasons. For some, literally the only reason is because it’s fun and it feels good. So, that’s cool. I also want to note that despite what we’re told, clothing is not inherently gendered. We’re groomed to believe that it is.

If you go back a few hundred years in Europe, the most masculine expressions of self for the most desired and wealthy men, were long, curly haired wigs, bows and lace all over the leggings, high heels, and lots of pink. Pink was seen as very masculine. So I think that that’s just a simple example to say that no color, no fabric, no shape or type of clothing is inherently masculine or feminine, it’s just that each culture makes up its own rules that then get followed for so long, it starts to seem like it’s a given. But it changes rather significantly overtime.

The other thing that it makes me think about is there’s so much distress that we see around children that we have decided are little boys, so kids that are assigned male at birth, and how little boys often want to wear princess dresses and princess costumes. All I can think is, this literally has nothing to do with gender for many of them. For some of them, it does. But for so many of them, it’s just – if you have an option of a kind of drab, plain, neutral colored pair of shorts and t-shirt or something that’s glittery and sparkly, and all kinds of bright colors and fabric that twirls and trails behind you, and feels so soft on your skin, that bounces when you run – that just sounds super fun and awesome. I don’t think that necessarily has anything to do, at all, with gender. It’s fun. That’s a great way to approach clothes, is what feels fun.

Dawn Serra: So, anyway, back to you, Fabulously Femme. You asked, “Why does women’s clothing feel so great on my body?” I think part of it is because silk and satin feel amazing because lots of the fabrics that get used for women’s lingerie and women’s clothing – you know, “women” – is really soft and really silky, and the way that it drapes and clings on the body can feel really delicious. It can be a really sensual experience to wear lace and to feel just that little bit of edge, reminding you of the thing that you’re wearing. Or to have silk gently brushing against your skin. Of course, that’s going to feel wonderful.

I also want to name that there’s a lot of women’s clothing that can feel fucking terrible like, where the fuck are pockets and why do things often feel so fucking stiff? But I think it’s a really interesting question to think about how, for people who crossdress, there’s this option to opt in to the kinds of clothes that make you feel really good without the social enforcement of having to wear things that you hate or that physically hurt you. For centuries, European women didn’t have the option to leave the house without a boned corset that made their shit so tight, they could barely breathe in ten layers of petticoats. There was no opting out of that and still having access to resources. One of the things I think that’s interesting about crossdressing is that you can opt out when it’s not fun anymore. But when it’s fun, it’s literally an expression of play and of pleasure. So, I don’t think that inherently clothing or crossdressing is about sexuality or gender. In fact, it’s this really shoddy and rough data that we have tells us that most crossdressers are straight men who are married.

One of the other things that then leads me to, that I think is a really interesting question to consider, is what kind of desire for crossdressing would there be if we lived in a trans future where the gender binary has been completely obliterated, where everyone just gets to be genderful, where however you want to express yourself and however you feel – that’s how you get to be and it doesn’t necessarily have to be labeled? Where men’s clothing and women’s clothing literally just becomes clothing? And in that future, wearing a dress wouldn’t necessarily have anything to do with your gender or being feminine, it would just be because you wanted to wear a dress or it felt fun or you like their colors. I wonder in that space, would crossdressing would still be a thing? Is crossdressing, part of it, a response to the taboo? Toxic masculinity paints all things feminine as inherently less worthy – so is part of what’s delightful about crossdressing coming from that taboo that’s baked into it? I don’t know. I mean, humans are far too complex for us to ever have a really simple prescriptive answer. There’s so many different reasons for people wanting to wear certain things and look certain ways. I think validating that, especially when it comes from a place of enjoyment and pleasure, is crucial.

Dawn Serra: We need to be able to validate each other’s different experiences. But I do think it’s really fun to consider different contexts and different ways of being, and what would get revealed if maybe, say, we completely eliminated the gender binary. How would that impact our fantasies and our desires?

Anyway, if you want some resources on crossdressing, I would highly recommend going to kinkacademy.com. They have a whole series of videos on crossdressing that are really great. So, definitely check that out. Plus, all kinds of other things. And I just want to take a quick minute to jump in, Fabulously Femme, your question about sex dolls – that, for me, is a grey space. I get the appeal of dolls – getting to create a fantasy where the doll represents whatever it is that you want and dream about, having the chance to literally craft an experience and a person without the complexity that comes with real human beings – Of course, that feels fun. And I think as dolls become more and more realistic, we’re really going to have to seriously contend with how that fits in with what types of power dynamics we’re reinforcing and how that fits in with consent.

Dolls are inanimate objects and they can’t really opt in or opt out. But, as they become more and more lifelike and self-realized through their software, then how does that space potentially contribute to further perpetuating the male gaze to the dehumanization of the humans these dolls represent, the fetization of certain skin colors or shapes of bodies. How are the dolls impacting a person’s ability to find belonging with real flawed human.

Dawn Serra: I don’t think dolls are inherently or automatically unethical. But, I really do think that being able to sit in these questions that they bring up is really important especially as technology advances and the dolls become more and more interactive and self-realized. So, I think my answer is I’m still navigating that space and I think it just really depends. Almost all of the dolls that I’ve ever seen had very exaggerated features that catered to the male gaze – so very hyper feminine faces and mouths, and bodies that were very normative and contributing to all the toxicity around how women’s bodies should look. Even male dolls, tend to have very stereotypically ascribed features around six pack abs and broad shoulders, and all of the things we’re told that we’re supposed to find sexy.

So, I think it’s just interesting. I think playing with dolls and having a doll that we interact with and dress up can be super fun. It absolutely can be. And I think, being able to hold that question around, am I doing this from a place of fun and being able to really realize what some of the scripts are that are informing my desire for these features in this doll or am I using it as a way to avoid some of the awkwardness and the messiness that comes with having relationships with live human beings? I don’t know – It’s an interesting place where I think we’re going to have to become more and more nuanced over the years.

I hope that was helpful and definitely stay tuned for an episode down the road all about crossdressing when I can bring an expert or two to give us a really delicious exploration of the space. And to you, Fabulously Femme, I hope you have fun dressing up and thank you so much for listening. That’s it for this week’s episode. If you have a question for me that you want me to field on the show at some point, send it to info@dawnserra.com or use the contact form at dawnserra.com. I will be back next week. I also have an interview with Sinclair Sexsmith and their partner, Rife, coming up soon. We’re going to be talking all about dominance and submission so keep an ear out for that. Until next time, I’m Dawn Serra. Thank you so much for being here with me.

Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured and this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses.

As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure.