Pleasure can be complicated, hunger can feel like a betrayal, but our bodies were built for pleasure and it’s time for you to reconnect with what it means to feel good, to prioritize what brings you delight and joy, and to unpack the old stories that keep you stuck in shame and guilt. My new online course, Power in Pleasure: Reconnecting with Your Hunger, Desire, and Joy, will start enrolling soon, so join the notification list now and get first dibs on the course.

Listener questions, pleasure, and reproductive justice with Monica Raye Simpson of SisterSong.

DeeLo wrote in with an a-ha moment around Hannah Gadsby’s “Nanette” and something I said a few weeks ago. Yay bodies and rewriting stories.

Julie wanted to offer some thoughts around mindfulness, anxiety, PTSD, and working with a professional after hearing Dr. Lori Brotto’s episode a few weeks ago. Co-signed!

Anonymous needs help. Her new partner’s erection lasted for hours. Is he just nervous or anxious? Maybe things will get better? Is there something she can do?

I got help answering this question from Patreon supporter Crystal Force, and then weigh in myself.

And then, there’s Monica.

The first time I saw Monica speak at Woodhull Sexual Freedom Summit, I was moved to tears. Her clarity about the work she does, who she does it for, and how she wants to be in the world is extraordinary. She understands the importance of sexual freedom and the role that happiness, pleasure, and queer acceptance play in our overall lives, and how reproductive justice can be a gateway to freedom in so many aspects of our lives.

I can’t wait for you to hear it.

Plus, Patreon supporters – If you support the show at the $3 level and above, this week’s bonus is an exploration into a relationship charter. I’ll offer you some questions to reflect on and even talk to a loved one about, as a jumping off point for being more deliberate and co-creative in the way you do relationship with each other. Listen and support the show at patreon.com/sgrpodcast

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook. It’s true. Oh! And Dawn is on Instagram.

In this episode, Monica and I talk about:

• How reproductive healthcare was excluded from healthcare reform in the 90’s and how the reproductive justice movement began.
• Reproductive justice work and the many facets that include choosing if and when we want to parent, how we want to parent our children and raise them in a safe environment, access to sexual freedom and pleasure, and so much more.
• The Let’s Talk About Sex Conference and finding a space to talk about the things that directly impact our bodies and sex, specifically for people of color and indigenous people.
• What pleasure and the erotic is for her and how Audre Lorde’s work has deeply transformed Monica’s understanding of the erotic as being in connection with our selves rather than forces outside of ourselves.
• The internal work that is needed to redefine what erotic connection is and cultivating a community to use that power to dismantle oppressive systems and increase access to safety, pleasure, and support.
• Porn versus the erotic.
• A promising and hopeful look of what sexual freedom could be like in a post-oppressive world.

About Monica Raye Simpson:

Monica Raye Simpson, a queer, black, NC native, has organized extensively against human rights abuse, the prison industry, racism, and systemic violence against Southern black women and LBGTQ people. A proud graduate of the historically black Johnson C. Smith University, she earned a bachelor’s in Communications and organized for LGBTQ rights on and off campus. She then became the Operations Director and the first person of color at the Charlotte Lesbian & Gay Community Center. Next, she trained black youth in activism, philanthropy, and fundraising as the Ujamaa Coordinator for Grassroots Leadership. In 2010, she moved to GA to be SisterSong’s Development Coordinator; she was promoted to Deputy Coordinator in 2011, Interim Executive Director in 2012, and Executive Director in 2013.

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: If you woke up tomorrow in a world that fully celebrated and encouraged your pleasure, your joy and your desire, without limits or expectations, where no matter what your body did or wanted, you would be honored and seen as endlessly where the unlovable, without changing a single thing, what would you want? What would you crave? What would you delight in unabashedly? What happens when you see pleasure as your birthright? What happens when you see pleasure as the potential catalyst for liberation, freedom and changing the world?

If you want to ask big questions about your pleasure and untell the stories that you were given about how much you deserve and how much you have to work to earn it, my pleasure course kicks off in several weeks. And if you want to be on the notification list to hear about when enrollment opens, it’s going to be an online course, multi-week live. We’re going to do online community calls and you’ll receive daily prompts that help you really change your relationship with pleasure. You can go to dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse – all one word. 

Folks who sign up for the pre-notification will also get bonus content if they decide to join the course. It’s going to be so much fun and such an invitation into your pleasure, your desire and your joy. God, I can’t wait and I hope to see you there. So if you’re interested to hear when enrollment opens, all you have to do is go to dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse.

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra, that’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships, from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love, as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics and liberation. This is about the big and the small, about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So, welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.

Welcome to this week’s show, everybody! Oh, it’s going to be so great. I’ve got several listener emails that I’m going to read first and then we are going to switch over to a delicious, exciting interview that I had with Monica Raye Simpson. Monica is someone that I have admired for so many years. Getting a chance to interview her was a dream come true. I have seen her speak at Woodhull so many times and every time she speaks, holy shit, the ground moves, the world opens up. It is fantastic. She is someone who really has clear vision about how she’s changing the world and making it a better place, why sex is so important and access to sex education and queer spaces. Oh, my God! It’s just endlessly rewarding. 

Dawn Serra: She works with SisterSong, which is a reproductive justice organization that I adore. They put on the “Let’s Talk About Sex Conference” that I attended last year. It’s going to be a super fun chat. So listener question first and then my interview with the incredible Monica Raye Simpson. 

So let me tell you just a little bit about Monica and then we’ll jump into the episode. Also, quick reminder, if you support the show on Patreon at $3 and above every month, you get weekly bonus content, which works out to 80 cents a week or something like that. If you support at $5 and above per month, you can help me field listener questions. As listener questions come in, I post them in Patreon and then you have an opportunity to play sexpert and to offer your opinions and your stories and then I might read them on the show, which happens today with a listener question that I got. 

Dawn Serra: Monica Raye Simpson, a queer, black, North Carolina native has organized extensively against human rights abuse, the prison industry, racism and systemic violence against Southern black women and LGBTQ people. A proud graduate of the historical black Johnson C. Smith University, she earned a Bachelor’s in Communications and organized for LGBT rights on and off campus. She then became the operations director and the first person of color at the Charlotte Lesbian & Gay Community Center.

Next, she trained black youth and activism, philanthropy and fundraising as the Ujamaa Coordinator for Grassroots Leadership. In 2010, she moved to Georgia to be SisterSong’s Development Coordinator. In 2013, she was named Executive Director of SisterSong. Her bio is extensive and goes so much deeper than that. So if you want to read the whole thing had to dawnserra.com/ep229 for Episode 229 because Monica’s fucking impressive. Anyway, here is the listener questions followed by my – oh God – heart-opening-so-excited interview with Monica all about the erotic and pleasure and reproductive justice. 

Dawn Serra: The first listener email for today is from DeeLo with a subject line of “Something dawned on me – Episode 224.” “Hey, Dawn! First, I love your podcast. Thank you beautiful woman. Secondly, I was listening to Episode 224 last week and you spoke about Hannah Gadsby’s “Nanette” and the impact it had on you and your partner. Me and mine had a similar experience. 

What resonated with me was when she spoke of her homophobia of herself, and the self-loathing that she endured as a result. Later in the show, you spoke about fat bodies and the self-judgment that went along with that for you and I had a revelation. Similarly, but nowhere near on the same scale of ferociousness of Hannah – I’m defs not comparing my experience to hers – I experienced a kind of self-loathing due to being in a bigger body in society. Friends, family, media, etc., telling me all my life that fat is bad and skinny is good. I grew up hating my shape, my curves, my size. I was always comparing and conscious of the space I took up, even noting to myself when I was the biggest in the room. Crazy, huh? I just want to say, “Not anymore.” My body does everything I asked of it and more and I refuse to hate it. Thank you for being a catalyst for my thoughts and perceptions of aspects of my life. Love, DeeLo.” 

Dawn Serra: That felt wonderful to receive DeeLo. Thank you so much for sharing that. I’m sure so many people that are listening feel similarly. I know that has been the journey that I have been on and it is complex and rich and rewarding and confusing and all of the things. But you’re so right. There are so many aspects of ourselves depending on how our bodies are in the world. Whether we have fat bodies or black bodies or disabled bodies or maybe even genitals that look different than we thought they should based on what we see in porn or what our friends have. There’s just so much around us that encourages us to compare and to judge and to try and control ourselves. 

I love that you are now in a place where you can say, “Not anymore” and that you know that your body does everything you asked for it, of it and more. That is the key. When we can be in our bodies and just realize our bodies are always doing its– That blew my mind the first time I heard somebody tell me that. Your body, literally, is always doing its best with what you give it. Always. Your body never is like, “Meh. I’m taking the day off today.” It’s doing the very best it can. And sometimes, that best is disappointing because we’re comparing ourselves to others or to who our body used to be years ago. But our body shows up every day and does the best that it can. We’re awfully cruel to our bodies considering how tirelessly they work on our behalf. 

Dawn Serra: So I love that you’re finding that spaciousness and that compassion. And yeah, Hannah Gadsby’s “Nanette” is so, so, so important and so phenomenal and what an incredible way to use a stage and a platform and– Holy smokes! I have a big crush on Hannah Gadsby. So thank you so much for listening to the show, DeeLo, and for writing in. I really appreciate it. 

This next email comes from Julie with a subject line of “Mindfulness caveats.” “Hi, Dawn! I really appreciated the episode with Dr. Brotto. I agree that mindfulness is an amazing tool for many things. I just thought it was important to point out that there are some people that need to be careful when attempting this practice, especially if they are trying it without the direct guidance of a therapist. 

Dawn Serra: If you’re a person who experiences extreme anxiety or panic attacks or has PTSD, many mindfulness exercises can trigger panic attacks. It’s especially likely during exercises focusing on breathing or body scanning. The other group that should be very careful are those with chronic pain. Again, because mindfulness heightens the awareness of sensation. 

I’m not saying mindfulness exercises aren’t helpful for those groups. In fact, they can be extremely helpful. I’m only saying that mindfulness is primarily used to combat dissociation and to bring someone back into the moment. If you’re someone with those conditions, dissociation is often a protective instinct and it can be very scary to try to practice mindfulness without a trained therapist there to lead you in how to avoid pain or panic that can result when you let go of the distance between your mind and body. Love the show. Keep up the great work making the world a sexier place.”

Dawn Serra: Thank you so much for writing in with this, Julie. I totally agree. I just started reading Jon Kabat-Zinn’s “Full Catastrophe Living.” Dr. Lori Brotto inspired me to really learn about a lot of the studies that they’ve been doing for so many years with cancer patients and patients who have chronic pain and all kinds of persistent experiences and health conditions.

But I will say, as someone who has pretty intense anxiety, focusing on my breathing is one of the fastest ways for me to induce panic attacks. It really depends on the day and it really depends on what’s going on in my body. I am hypervigilant about my body. So one of the things that really, really is a guaranteed trigger for anxiety is noticing my breathing and also hearing my heartbeat. If I hear my heartbeat, I immediately start panicking and wondering all kinds of things about am I going to hear another beat? Is this the right rhythm? All kinds of stuff.

Dawn Serra: So I have all kinds of wonderful coping mechanisms that I use that helped me to manage those things. There are certainly times and places where breathing and slowing down and listening to my breath and noticing my chest feels so luscious and good. 

For people who are new to their anxiety or panic disorders or for people who don’t have a lot of really practice coping techniques. I 100% agree that might induce more panic, so working with professionals – like Dr. Lori Brotto and her team and Jon Kabat-Zinn and all the folks that are doing incredible things helping people through cancer. Definitely seek out someone who can support you and who can help you feel held and safe and seen as you start practicing this if you notice that it does cause tension or fear. 

Dawn Serra: So thank you for writing in with that and offering it to people who might find that mindfulness exercises trigger things inside of themselves. Mindfulness can help so much around PTSD and panic and anxiety. But you’re right. Doing it with someone who can guide you and support you and offer other types of safety measures as you tiptoe into those things is a very wise and important thing. So thank you so much for listening to the show and for writing in with this very thoughtful little asterisk. I couldn’t agree more based on my experience and I hope everyone out there, whether it’s on your own or with a trained professional, after hearing Dr. Brotto, decides to dabble with a little bit of mindfulness. Who knows? All kinds of yummy things might happen, especially when you’re touching other people. 

I have found that mindfulness, for me, since being in my body sometimes is a little bit tough, that doing mindfulness where I’m engaging with others or when I’m doing a walking meditation is a much easier way for me to gain entry to my body. So if my hands are feeling someone else’s hair and skin and the ridges and the valleys of their body, it’s much easier for me to drop in and get really present. So experiment and try different things and trust yourself. Trust your body. So yeah. Thank you so much for writing in Julie. 

Dawn Serra: Last email before we get to the incredible Monica Raye Simpson. It was a dream to get to interview her. So I can’t wait for you to hear it. But we’ll field this question first. I got a fantastic response from a Patreon supporter. For those of you who don’t know, you can support the show at patreon.com/sgrpodcast. If you support at $3 and above every month, you get weekly bonus content. If you support at $5 a month and above, you get to help me field listener questions. Then for some of those answers, I read them on-air and one of those was super thoughtful and I will be reading it today. 

So I got an anonymous email that says, “Hi Dawn! I wrote in a few months back about fear of sex and pain during intercourse. Your answers were so helpful and eloquent. Now, I’m back with question number two – an entirely new topic. Woohoo. I’ve been seeing a new lover and we’ve had sex twice, but neither time he got off. The first time we had been drinking, so he was unable to stay hard which I totally get. It was also new and a little awkward, but we laughed it off and it was fine. 

Dawn Serra: The second time he stayed hard for hours, literally. He’s somewhat warm to me that he could last a long time, but I didn’t realize how long. Finally, he told me he had to pee really bad and got up to go to the bathroom. I feel a little disappointed because the sex is really good in my opinion and we fit well together and are very comfortable and compatible with one another. I feel like I’m not enough or I’m not doing enough even though he seems to be enjoying it. Part of me wonders if he’s just nervous or anxious. Maybe things will get better. 

Is there something I can do? In the past, men have come without me even really needing to touch them. I used to be a stripper, so I can give a good lap dance and turn men on pretty easily. This is making me second guess myself and I’m sure he also feels like he’s not performing as he should. What’s the best way to go about this? All the best, xoxo, Anonymous”

Dawn Serra: I posed this question anonymously in Patreon and someone named Crystal Force offered a very detailed answer. So I’m going to share what Crystal had to say and then see what I have to add afterwards because it’s pretty thorough. So Crystal wrote: “First and foremost, sex does not require orgasm or ejaculation to be enjoyable.” Fact! “Most of us struggle with that thought at first. The expectation of “needing to orgasm” is a very strong anxiety inducer, which tends to tense the body and not allow for orgasm to be reached. Instead, making it about the sensuality and pleasure is a better way to place expectations. 

Secondly, the partner of those with penises with this sexual concern tend to put the continuous “blame” – in quotes – on our own shoulders. Did we do something wrong? Is it that they just aren’t attracted enough to us? What else can I do to make it better for them? The reality is that in almost all cases, it’s not the partner’s actions. 

Dawn Serra: Finally, the harder question, does he have a medical, emotional, psychological or social concern that is the real cause of this? He has obviously had the situation for a long time. He may not even realize that he could have a medical condition called retrograde ejaculation. Or he could have other physiological issues that should be addressed if he has distressed over it. Emotionally, if he’s anxious, it makes it much more difficult to achieve orgasm. He may be struggling with performance anxiety, and then he knows you’re expecting him to ejaculate and he also knows that he struggles to achieve it. Add in that this is a new relationship and he has a lot to be anxious over, possibly. 

Psychologically, he could be struggling with being a victim of abuse or depression. He may have even brought up in a strict conservative household where sex is considered shameful and bad. Even though he’s older now and may think differently. those lessons are fairly firmly ingrained and for some, need intense work to fully resolve. Socially as well, being able to “last a long time” is considered the mark of a ”true stud.” This societal misperception does so much more harm than good. 

Dawn Serra: I would advise that maybe you could suggest that instead of sex with the expectation of orgasm, to instead find other forms of intimacy such as sensual massage, allowing him to be able to enjoy intimate touch, where there’s no expectation or the need to orgasm. Alternatively, you could try giving him space that if he can orgasm with masturbation, but struggles with sex, to make it part of your sexual activities. Some men may have done a disservice to themselves training their body to need a very specific form of stimulation to achieve orgasm, from a very firm and tight grip during masturbation. That is, in many cases, not reproducible with partner penetration. 

Ultimately, if he’s distressed or concerned about this, you should see a doctor or a specialist called a urologist to ensure that there are no physiological or medical issues in play. Then he can seek out a sex coach if he wishes to obtain more information to help him work through and unpack what might be the cause of his situation. 

My recommendation for you is to remain supportive and to take the pressure off of him, but not expecting ejaculation as the ultimate pinnacle to be achieved in sex. There’s so much more fun and pleasure that can be had when in comparison to that few seconds that you get from an orgasm which is over too fast for most. As they say, it’s not the end point but the journey along the way. 

Dawn Serra: Thank you so much Crystal Force for sharing your thoughts. So a couple of my thoughts. Anonymous, in your email, it didn’t seem like anything you shared was distressing to him, more just that he was aware and said, “I can last a really long time” and then you’re struggling with, “Is it me?” Crystal did kind of mentioned that often, when partners of people with penises notice that something isn’t playing to the script in our head, that we tend to internalize it as something we’ve done. We’re not attractive enough. We’re not skilled enough. We’re doing something wrong. He must have feelings about us or they must have feelings about us – since all kinds of genders can have penises.

I’m really glad that Crystal named that because that’s what I’m hearing here. You’ve had sex a couple of times. That is, first of all, not enough to really determine a pattern. There’s so many things that could be at play, both the first time you had sex and the second time that you had sex. I would say if you have multiple, multiple instances of something where this is happening, then maybe that’s the pattern. This might be an outlier. 

Dawn Serra: Also, I think Crystal brings up some great points. If he is distressed about this, if he’s ashamed or worried, there are all kinds of things that he can do to just inquire within. I mean, there doesn’t have to be anything wrong with him. Maybe he just has a really long staying power. I had a partner years ago who, even after ejaculation and orgasm, pretty much stayed hard and could just keep going. That was just how his body was. He was also very young and who knows how his body was going to change over the years and the decades. 

So if he’s not distressed about this and this is just about you, I think the question just gets to become, maybe this is just his body and how can you work with that and make that fun? We get so many cultural messages about how we’re responsible for so many things that our partners are experiencing. Sometimes that’s from a place of generosity. We want our partners to have a good time. We want our partners to feel pleasure. We want to ensure that they’re really truly there with us and we’re creating something together. Then sometimes that is actually more tied to anxiety and a fear of lack or a fear of being abandoned in, “If I don’t perform, if I don’t live up to the expectation, they’ll leave. I’ll lose access to this thing that I’m really enjoying. I’ll lose access to this pleasure that feels really good.” So just kind of settle in with yourself and ask, “Am I really feeling distressed about this or is this just new and it surprised me a little bit?” 

Dawn Serra: Also, the one thing that I didn’t notice in your email was, have you talked to him about this? Have you asked him, “What’s your experience of your body? What’s your experience with your penis? What is it like for you when you’ve got a hard cock and it lasts for a really long time? Is that something you enjoy? Is that something that’s just neutral? What is your experience been with past partners around this?” Just start a dialogue. Get really curious. You can’t ever know what his experience is if you don’t directly ask him. 

So maybe for him, he enjoys the fact that his body can do this or maybe it’s a totally neutral thing. He’s had a mixture of experiences, and so he was just letting you know because of that. Maybe he’s concerned that you’re going to feel like you’re not living up to expectations because he’s had that before and he can offer you reassurance. 

Dawn Serra: I would start with self-inquiry and just checking in with, “Am I asking these questions because I feel like I should? Am I asking these questions because I really do feel like I’ve done something bad or because I’m not living up to his expectations based on some hint he gave me.” Then ask him. Get super curious about all of his experiences and see where that leads. I’ll bet that being able to ask him about his body and his history and where he’d like to be and how he experiences pleasure and just generously opening with curiosity and his story is going to build so much more connection than trying to silently find a way to perform in a way that meets an expectation that you’ve told yourself about him and his body.

So good luck to you Anonymous. Thank you so much for writing in. I’m so glad that that first question you asked, my answer was helpful. I hope that this just gives you some things to think about, too. And thank you so much to Crystal Force for not only supporting the show, but also for offering such a thoughtful answer that you, Anonymous, can now take to your partner if you want to have that conversation and if he does experience or express any kind of distress, there’s all kinds of things now that Crystal has provided for you to think through. It is now time for my interview with Monica Raye Simpson. Here we go. 

Dawn Serra: Welcome to Sex Gets Real, Monica. To say that I am thrilled and over the moon to talk to you today is an understatement. So welcome to the show. 

Monica Raye Simpson: Thank you so much for having me. I am super pumped to be on and I feel like I’m just as equally excited. So thank you so much.

Dawn Serra: You’re so welcome. Listeners know what a fan I am of your work and of SisterSong’s work. Of course, I’ve been to Woodhull many, many years and rave about it whenever I go. So I know the listeners will be excited as well about our chat. 

I would love to start, you do such incredible important work around reproductive justice and sexuality and sexual freedom. For people who aren’t familiar with what reproductive justice means, could you give us a little bit of a primer? 

Monica Raye Simpson: Sure. So I have to take it back to 1994, really, when I let people know about reproductive justice. Because a lot of folks just think that it’s something that has come into our social justice movement spaces over the past couple of years. That’s actually not true. This framework has been one that is well over two decades old. 

So in 1994, a group of black women came together in Chicago, Illinois. One of one of the folks that was in the room is our founding National Coordinator Loretta Ross as well as amazing folks like Toni Bond Leonard and other really fantastic, hella dope, black women whose analysis that we just keep grabbing onto today. They were in this room together because it was the height of healthcare reform in this country under the Clinton administration and these conversations around what does healthcare reform mean for our communities? The most marginalized communities? What does it mean for us? How do we want to be active in this conversation? What’s necessary for us to center in this conversation? All these questions they were wrestling with. 

Monica Raye Simpson: So they decided to put their voices forward to Congress and say that if we’re going to have a conversation about healthcare reform in this country, that you’re going to listen to black women. You’re going to listen to people of color. You’re going to center our issues and you’re not going to exclude reproductive healthcare from this conversation on healthcare because it is a part of our healthcare.

In particular, they did not want the conversation around abortion. In particular to be excluded from the conversation on healthcare reform. They put their thoughts out there. They put their demands out there in this direct action that they did. They wrote this call to action to Congress and put that in the Washington Post and had hundreds and hundreds of signatures. I think it was almost 800 signatures of folks from all across the country who were standing in solidarity with this statement these black women created. They were calling themselves Women of African Descent for Reproductive Justice. This term reproductive justice was first looking at reproductive health and rights in connection with social justice issues. So that’s when we see the birth of the term, was in that conversation and that action the black woman created in 1994. 

Monica Raye Simpson: When SisterSong came to be in 1997 as this national collective of indigenous women and women of color, we were able to kind of rebirth that term and to really use that framework in our efforts to advance reproductive health and rights in this country and to take a more intersectional approach to ground and root our work in the human rights framework. It was a pretty transformative thing. This frame was very transformative because it really pushed us away from the single issue lens that a lot of folks are organizing with in terms of reproductive health and rights at the time. Yeah. So now we have this framework-now movement. I’ll call it reproductive justice.

You know, if we were to define that, SisterSong talks about reproductive justice and defines it as our human right to have children in the ways that we want, whether that’s all the things that we can around birth justice, maternal health care, doulas, midwives… Really bringing in our cultural practices and thinking about what’s important for us and having the children that we want and having access to the healthcare that we need for that. 

Monica Raye Simpson: We also have the human right to not have children and to prevent or end pregnancies with dignity, without shame and safely and legally. So this is where we get our work around access to contraception, abortion rights and access work really falls very squarely under that particular tenet. We also define it as a human right to parent the children that we already have with healthy, in healthy and safe environments. So without fear of the government or police or polluted water. We really think about what does it take to really raise our families and raise our children in environments that allow them to grow to their fullest potential. 

Ultimately, we added this last piece of our work which really helps us hold our sexual freedom work. It helps to hold the growing work around querying of RJ and thinking about how queer and trans folks are deeply connected to this work. It’s our human right to bodily autonomy, free from all forms of reproductive oppression, which we really talk about is the control and exploitation and violation of our bodies, our sexuality, our labor. 

Monica Raye Simpson: We say really simply that reproductive justice is our human right to have a child, to not have a child, to parent the children we have in healthy and safe environments and our human right to bodily autonomy.

Dawn Serra: Holy shit. There’s so much power in what you’re sharing and it’s also something that clearly you’ve talked a lot about because you packed so much in so thoughtfully and clearly. It was beautiful and I basically just want to shake my pom poms.

Monica Raye Simpson: I love pom poms. As a cheerleader, thank you.

Dawn Serra: You’re very welcome. So I first had an opportunity to hear you speak at a roundtable at Woodhull several years ago. I know that so much of the ways that you’ve partnered with Woodhull is around that sexual freedom piece. Then SisterSong has their own conference, which I’ve raved about last year, the “Let’s Talk About Sex Conference.” I had an amazing time doing a workshop there. It was so healing and nurturing and beautiful. Can you tell us a little bit about when you think about all the things you work on? I mean, from prison reform and thinking about clean water and healthcare to abortion and queer and trans issues, why “Let’s Talk About Sex?” 

Monica Raye Simpson: Yeah. What’s interesting when we think about reproductive health and rights and justice work in general, we are talking a lot about the access that we need around contraception or we talk about our ability to have access to safe  and legal abortions. We talk about parenting and maternal health and what food people need to have healthy bodies, to have healthy babies in the house, healthy children. All these conversations get wrapped up in that. 

But the thing that’s the through line when we think about having children or not or making sure that we have what we need for the children that we do have, sex is just the thing that runs through that. Children don’t get here without sex. You know what I’m saying? Well, actually, they do. Let’s just be clear about that. But this conversation around sex and bodies and sexuality and “sexuali-tease” – as we also like to talk about in the SisterSong – that is the through line to all of the work that we do. It’s really about body, our bodies and our decision-making around our bodies, our decision-making around our futures. 

Monica Raye Simpson: What SisterSong– Because I wasn’t a part of SisterSong whenever they decided to start the “Let’s Talk About Sex Conference” in 2007. What the leadership at that time realized was that we’re in these conversations all the time, about everything that’s impacting our body, but we don’t have a space to talk about our bodies. We don’t have a space as people of color, in particular, because that was really the goal of “Let’s Talk About Sex” was to create the safest place possible for people of color to really be able – and indigenous folks – to be able to talk about sex and bodies in a space that was ours, curated and created by us for us to really be able to connect and move our work around these issues. And those spaces weren’t really available for us. So SisterSong created a space that was so incredibly needed for us, by us. So yeah. 

That’s why the conference is so necessary and we were very explicit in the name. We didn’t want it to get confused. We don’t want anyone confused. We are here to talk about sex and all the things that’s connected to that, whether that’s our reproductive health, our reproductive rights, our ability to make decisions about our bodies, what do we need? How do we enjoy pleasure? What does pleasure mean for us? All those conversations that get so locked up in those secret places in our communities, we were creating a place for us to have those conversations out loud with each other and to connect with other people who wanted to have those conversations and learn and grow and build with each other. 

Monica Raye Simpson: So that’s really what “Let’s Talk About Sex” is about. It has now become the premier reproductive justice conference, There’s not really another national repro conference that allows us to have these conversations and to create these spaces that we do at “Let’s Talk About Sex.” For that to be led by folks of color is pretty amazing. I think that that’s what makes the space feel so transformative and so different from any conference that you’ll ever experience. That’s our goal with each “Let’s Talk About Sex” – for folks to have a transformative experience with this work. So hopefully we’re doing that. 

But we’re excited that we’re going to have our next conference, our next “Let’s Talk About Sex Conference” in October of 2019. We are like, “Ahh! It’s happening again!” Every time I go to speak where we have a chance to connect with folks on the ground, they’re like, “When is it happening? When is it happening?” They want it to happen every year. But we do have it every other year for now and we’re excited that 2019 is the next year, in October. 

Dawn Serra: I will do everything I can to be there because last year’s was magic and exactly what you said, transformative, like really, truly transformative. I will rave about this for the next 14 months to get everybody there.

So you mentioned really having a space to talk about our bodies and pleasure especially for people who are POC, indigenous, queer, trans – people that are at the most marginalized intersections – and I’m wondering, we’ve talked on the show a number of times about the ways that pleasure can be radical and liberatory. I’d love to know, for you personally, what does pleasure really mean for you?

Monica Raye Simpson: I love that question. Thank you. In these days and times where we’re always talking about trauma and oppression, wooh, it feels good just to take a breath and exhale to think about pleasure, just for a moment. So thank you for the question. But for me, pleasure is that exhale. I mean, it’s the ability to be free of the oppression for our trauma not to be what leads us or what moves us towards action. Pleasure is that energy that helps me be creative and helps me to be generative and to think outside of the box, to think of solutions. Yeah. It’s that very liberatory space for me, energetically. 

For me, it’s not just connected to what feeling I get from someone else or what feeling I get because I’m having some amazing sexual experience. Pleasure is bigger than that for me. It is more about that energy, that vibration that moves through all of my chakras and moves through my entire being that allows me to disconnect from the oppression and the trauma and to really have a moment as long as I can make it last, where I actually feel liberation in my body.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I’ve really been grappling with, how can pleasure serve to not only heal and connect me to myself, but also heal and help me connect to the collective?

Monica Raye Simpson: Yes.

Dawn Serra: That’s such a big, beautiful and exciting question of looking towards the things that we want. So I adore what you just said around it not only moving through your entire being, but being able to lead from a place that’s creative and generative rather than leading from our trauma and pain. We need more of that.

So you just presented with several other folks on the power of the erotic at this year’s Woodhull and it was the first Woodhull I haven’t been at in many years I was at a fat activism conference. That was fantastic. But–

Monica Raye Simpson: Oh. Really?

Dawn Serra: Yes! It hurts my heart to not be there. So seeing the tweets come out was magic and the erotic is something that I’m so fascinated by because I think we have these mainstream, heterocentric, cis pop culture definitions of the erotic. And then there is the black feminist Audre Lorde version of the erotic. Could you tell us a little bit about how you talk about the erotic and what the erotic means for you and the ways that you were presenting it at the conference? 

Monica Raye Simpson: Yeah. So let me tell you, I had such an awesome time with this work at the Woodhull Conference. We have been a partner in working with Woodhull for many years for their conference. I’m really grateful for the consistent space that Woodhull provides for activists and folks to really talk about these issues, to find the connections, to build on the work, to have a lot of fun. It’s really purposeful and so necessary in these times. 

I was first introduced to Audre Lorde’s power of the erotic when I was an undergrad. I grew up in this very small rural town in North Carolina. And so, I talk a lot in my reproductive justice story, as we call it, it’s just a song about how difficult it was for us to find access or how difficult it was for me to find access to reflections of other types of people. It was just– If it wasn’t on television, it was very hard for me to find it anywhere, when you live in rural America. I remember going to my library on campus and I had heard through some other friends of mine, cause I had just came out on campus, and so this name Audre Lorde started floating around in my universe. I said, “Well, let me just sit with Audre Lorde for a minute.” She forever changed my life.

Monica Raye Simpson: Her words, her work, the way that I was able to see myself in a way that I had just never been able to see myself was completely transformative for me. Yeah. I’m so grateful for that introduction. Just like those first days of being connected to Audre Lorde’s work. I remember coming across this small essay, “The Power of the Erotic, The Uses of the Erotic” and I was like, “Ooh, erotic.” So I was ready to get all of it because I was all about my sexual erotic energy back then. But for me, it was about sex. It was about feeling like who am I having this feeling with? 

Audre Lorde took me in a completely different direction with her words and she started to talk about it from a very personal perspective about how do we connect to that energy within us that helps us create and some lead and it wasn’t connected to somebody else. Up until that point, the erotic for me had to be connected to somebody else. My erotic self had to be because I was trying to show someone or prove to someone or woo someone. That’s what erotic meant to me. She completely changed that definition for me. She’s like, “It’s not about anybody else really. It’s about who are you?” She took me on this journey to get more connected to myself – who I was. 

Monica Raye Simpson: So I thought that this would have been a really great way to start to talk about erotic power and eroticism from a different perspective at Woodhull this year, especially because of where we are, politically. And just what we’re having to face and all the different movements and work that we do, where everything outside of us is just so oppressive. And so if we’re going to talk about sexual freedom, how do we talk about it from a perspective that allows us to go deep within, to think about what are those things that we have within us that will push us further in our leadership, that pushes us further in our idea creations and our ability to think about solutions. 

So the way that she broke down in her writing about the difference between the pornographic, which we had some grappling with in the room. Because this was not about shaming pornography. But she was helping us understand this definition from pornographic about this denial of erotic power and how it really emphasizes sensation without feeling. And we allow folks in the room to really grapple with that. Then we put that against this definition of erotic that she gave us, which looked at this internal sense of power and how we have a sense of self and how we think about what that means in terms of our own power and then the larger conversation of power. It was just so fascinating to see the participants in the room just take their time with going through what these words meant from them and to really think about these words through the lens of black feminism, which I also think was really, really exciting for folks in the room. 

Monica Raye Simpson: So yeah, it took people– I think that people came again, just like I came to the text. This was a new text for a lot of folks in the room of like, Oh, I get to think about how sexy I’m about to be. This was like, “Actually, you were here because it’s time for you to go deeper within yourself.” What does that mean to do that work? Because we need that level of introspection and that level of like…  Yeah, I keep using the word transformative a lot today. But it’s just that’s the kind of internal work that we need right now. Because we need our folks, like all of us, to be able to stand fully in our power. What does it look like if we lead from that place? I think that’s what Audre Lorde was helping us to see in her writing and I think that that’s what we were able to help folks in the room understand.

Dawn Serra: What comes up for me as you asked that question of, what does it mean for all of us to stand fully in our power because we need that– It kind of gives me this – I don’t know – this really deep, grounded, rooted feeling of, if all of us could really find that power and understand ourselves and heal the things that we need to heal and grieve the things we need to grieve and then just show up in that kind of messiness that is ourselves. But to really know it and to stand beside folks who are doing the same, even if we are talking about sex, to enter into a sexual encounter from that place of power with someone else who’s in that place of power is radically different than entering into sex as this consumer performance that we see a lot in pop culture and media these days.

Monica Raye Simpson: I agree and we use a lot of pop culture references in our work, in our training to help people see that right. I’m so glad that you brought that up. We use images, we use music videos, we use movies themselves – video and movies are different things like that – to help people see that. Because what we get and what society gives us, is just this definition that Audre Lorde gives us in her writing as the pornographic. It’s just about a sensation. It’s about a feeling. That’s what we’re chasing is the feeling. 

And what she’s pushing us to and what she’s charging us to, what I get from this is, “What if we were chasing ourselves?” That’s what we were chasing, not someone else or something outside of us. What if we were really putting that energy into ourselves and like you said, if we were connecting with each other, whether it’s intimately, physically, creatively, organizationally – whatever – if we were coming to each other from those places, the power that we would have– And we talked about this at the end of our session, what would it look like to use the power of the erotic to dismantle systems of oppression? What does it look like to use this power that we all have to really eradicate and dismantle the system of white supremacy? 

Monica Raye Simpson: And the conversation that we were able to get from that was so rich because people weren’t really thinking about it from that place. They were like, “Oh? Oh! Like we can– That would be really interesting and different.” And it would be a strategy and tactic that I feel like our oppressors have been really trying to push us away from. They try to keep us in this “just chasing the feeling, wanting to get the sensation” kind of world, where if we were to flip that dynamic, it would actually flip everything. I truly believe that. I think that Audre Lorde was prophetic in some ways around, if we were to take on this understanding and really move from this place, oppression would have a harder time of grabbing us and taking hold and keeping hold of us. I truly believe that.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Because I think so much of the job of oppression is to keep us distracted and searching for answers outside of ourselves.

Monica Raye Simpson: Exactly. She’s just like, “We already have it. It’s in us.” How about we start to access that and then move forward. I was really excited to revisit this text, now 20 years later, I think it is. I’m really dating myself. I was just home in my hometown for my 20th high school reunion, which was very interesting. So it’s just making me really think about the dating of myself, but… And I was thinking about who I was then versus who I am now, which is, that’s a whole other podcast that we can do with each other.

Dawn Serra: Heck, yeah!

Monica Raye Simpson: But revisiting that with who I am now in this movement work, doing this reproductive justice work, I feel like this is such a powerful solution for us. It’s a powerful possibility for us. Thinking about the ways in which we connect again, intimately, creatively, organizationally and just a completely different way, I would be so excited to think about what came out and what will come out of that and what will be possible for us. That’s how we ended our session in Woodhull was like, “Let’s hold the possibilities of what is possible when we actually use our erotic power from this place that Audre Lorde really teaches us about.” 

I think people left so excited. They left with such anticipation about what is possible. And isn’t that what we want? That’s the kind of energy I want to live in, that anticipation. I think about what comes about in foreplay, you know, it was about to happen. Maybe it will happen. Maybe it won’t. I don’t know. But that anticipatory kind of energy, it makes us ready for anything. And I think that that’s what folks were really looking for. Again, especially with so much that we’re having to hold and deal with in the work that we do every day. This gives us that– Yeah. It gives us that different energy to move with. Yeah. It made me super excited. It was great to see that the folks in the room were also really receptive of that. Yeah. So I was just like, “Oh. We got to do more of this.” We have to have more of these conversations because I see the impact that it had, even just a one day training with folks in the room.

Dawn Serra: So my next question for you is not a small one. But thinking about all of these conversations and the years that you’ve had to really grapple with the power of the erotic and reproductive justice and sexual freedom. For you, personally, when you imagine a post-oppressive world, what would sexual liberation look like for you?

Monica Raye Simpson: Ooh. You have some really good questions today. 

Dawn Serra: Oh. Thank you.

Monica Raye Simpson: Super appreciate it. What would sexual freedom look like for me? Well, for me, it would look like the little black girl growing up in a rural town. Not feeling like she had to hide her inquisitive kind of spirit.

I grew up with lots of– I had so many questions. I wanted to experience so much and feel so much and touch so much. I was just so connected to my body and feelings and things. I didn’t feel like I had an outlet for that anywhere. I felt like I had to keep that so hidden within myself. So I couldn’t ask questions. I couldn’t see the other folks I could connect with, who felt the same way. I felt like it was just me, myself and I in this little box of wanting to know what it felt like or what it feels like or what it would be like. 

Monica Raye Simpson: So in this post-oppressive world, that little girl that grows up in no matter where she lives, but even if she lives in the rural town like I did, she would not feel like she was alone. She would not feel like she has to hold herself or hide herself or shy away from conversations or even experiences. That she would have the ability to ask those questions, to be in community, to actually have community. Yeah. To kind of figure that out for herself and not feel like she was doing that under a cloud of shame. 

In this post-oppressive world, sexual freedom to me looks like if sexual freedom exists, then reproductive oppression does not. So the control and exploitation of our bodies and the violation of our bodies, our sexuality, our labor, no longer exists. That means that I don’t have to be that little girl who was touched improperly and way too soon and without consent. You know, way too young. That’s not an experience I’ll have to grow up with. I could wear what I wanted to wear and not have to worry about that being an entry point for individuals that think they can touch and be with my body. 

Monica Raye Simpson: It’s a world where we actually get to not have to hold our breath whenever we’re in a space where it feels like it could be dangerous. I remember being in spaces growing up where there was a lot of guys– I remember this one time in particular, we were at this party and I was with a couple of friends of mine. Somehow we ended up in this room with all these guys and I was still very young, probably like 16 years old, at this party. A moment happened in that room where I was like, “Something bad can really happen right now.” I don’t know how I would get out of it. 

But that level of fear that I had, in this post oppressive world, that wouldn’t have to exist for people. That wouldn’t have to be the thing that folks have to worry about. That’s what it looks like for me. That’s what it feels like for me. I mean, those are just some of the things. I mean, there’s probably so much more. But my little queer self –  my little country girl, queer self – I would have representation. I wouldn’t have to wait until I was damn near 20 years old to find Audre Lorde– You know what I’m saying? Until I finally see myself. I could already see myself. So yeah. That’s kind of how it’s looking and feel for me in some ways, anyway.

Dawn Serra: Thank you so much for sharing. It feels really personal and also, so hopeful to imagine a world where we don’t have that fear and we don’t have to hold our breath and we don’t have to worry about saying the wrong thing or wearing the wrong thing and we just have access to our bodies and our curiosity on our terms from the youngest of ages. Even that alone would be revolutionary. 

Monica Raye Simpson: I absolutely agree. I want that world which is why I work for reproductive justice every single day. Because I want that world.

Dawn Serra: Literally, you wear a cape in my eyes. I mean, you’re a superhero of change. So, yes.

Well, I want to respect your time and I know you’ve got a flight to catch. I would love to talk to you for so many more hours. But in the interest of wrapping this up, how can people find you online, find out about SisterSong and keep their eye out for the “Let’s Talk About Sex Conference?”

Monica Raye Simpson: Absolutely. So you can always find all things SisterSong at our website sistersong.net. Very, very easy to find all the things there. You can also keep an eye out for us on social media, especially Twitter. We try to– Our Twitter world is kind of lit. So please get in on that. That’s @SisterSong_WOC. The same thing for Facebook. Same thing for Instagram. We try to keep the social media on point. So please follow us and please be a part of our virtual family. Because once you’re part of the virtual family, then you are family. So come on over. 

And “Let’s Talk About Sex Conference” we know that’s going down in 2019, October. We’re slowly giving you all teasers on all the things around that. So you can go to the letstalkaboutsexconference.com website as well. That’s also directly connected to our sistersong.net website. You can go either place. So just keep going back. You can check out the videos and all the information that was up from last year, if you didn’t get a chance to see that. Just to kind of see what the experience was. 

Monica Raye Simpson: And you’ll be able to see all the updates as we start to roll those out starting this October. So it’s going to be super fun. We’re very excited about it. There were over a thousand people at our last conference in New Orleans in 2017. So we want to double that. We want everybody to be there and to come experience this experience that we have known as “Let’s Talk About Sex.” So yeah. Please, please, please follow us, be with us because we want to be with you all.

Dawn Serra: Yay! Well, I will have all of those links in the show notes and at dawnserra.com for this episode, so people can just click all the things and follow all the places. Monica, thank you so much for being here with me today and for sharing your wisdom and your stories with all of us. This felt so nourishing. 

Monica Raye Simpson: Thank you. It felt really, really good to be in conversation with you, too. I love the program. I’m so glad that you’re doing what you’re doing. So, yay for that. Keep it going because we need it right now. 

Dawn Serra: We surely do. And to everybody who tuned in, thank you so much for being here with us. Of course, you can get all the details and send in your questions at dawnserra.com. Until next time. I’m Dawn Serra with Monica Raye Simpson. Bye!

Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured in this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses. 

As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?