What do butt play, pegging the patriarchy, non-sexual Dominance & submission, strap-ons, and sex clubs have in common? Why, Luna Matatas, of course.

She is joining me this week to talk about all the delicious, yumminess that is kink and pleasure. As a fellow O.School Pleasure Professional (check out her Fuck Like a Goddess weekly live stream), she loves talking about sex club etiquette, anal and how to seduce the anus, pee play, and strap-ons.

We go all the places, plus we field a few listeners questions while we’re at it.

Plus, we have a yummy bonus chat all about piss play exclusively for Patreon supporters. Not yet a supporter of the show? Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to join the fun.

If you want to grab my latest workshop on ethical porn and how to use porn in your relationship or any of my other online courses and workshops, you can check that out at dawnserra.com/courses.

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook. It’s true. Oh! And Dawn is on Instagram.

In this episode, Luna and I talk about:

• How Luna came up with her super popular t-shirts, #PegThePatriarchy.
• Buttstravaganza is happening Monday, January 15th for Luna’s birthday, so if you have a chance to tune into O.School there are butt-tastic giveaways.
• Seducing the anus and how we can do that, especially with all the big feelings we have about our butts and buttholes.
• Strap-on sex, especially in a fat body, can be complex, fun, and subversive. Luna and I geek out about our love of strap-ons and the power our cocks give us.
• How Luna’s cock actually enhances her femininity.
• The importance of choosing a harness that suits your body and your aesthetic because you want something that not only fits but also that feels yummy and good.
• Laughter and play as a way to improve feedback and communication in the bedroom.
• A listener email from Victor, who is an 18 year old guy, and he is dying to get into sex clubs. How does he find them and how does he get in?
• Sex club etiquette and why so many women and queer folks are so guarded in dungeons and sex clubs.
• Non-sexual Dominance and submission – Luna has some beautiful things to say about all the yummy ways we can engage in kink and D/s without it having to be a sexual relationship or any nudity. It expands SO many possibilities and offers so much more access to touch and connection.
• What if the pinnacle of pleasure and the erotic isn’t always sexual? What if power, connection, and the erotic could be reached from food or dance or non-sexual kink? We explore that together.
• Hopeless Lover wrote in about being in a long distance relationship, being with a virgin, and why he struggles to orgasm now that they’re having sex.

About Luna Matatas:

Luna Matatas is a sex and pleasure educator, crafting goddess and burlesque performer wannabe. She celebrates femininity, sex and body-positivity and all things that glitter. Luna packs over 10 years of experience internationally and locally in health and sexuality education. She takes a playful, realistic and open-minded approach to adult education. As a self-identified pleasure pusher, Luna facilitates accessible, judgement-free and safe spaces for people to be curious about their bodies, desires and relationships with themselves and others. Her workshops are refreshingly funny, warm and inviting. She loves hugs and is terrified of spiders and eggplant.

Stay in touch with Luna on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter @lunamatatas, and on Fetlife where she is somethingshiny.

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!

Hey listeners, it’s Dawn and we are back with another episode of Sex Gets Real. This week I am joined by fellow pleasure professional from O.school, Luna Matatas. Luna is incredible. We talk all about strap-on sex and pegging the patriarchy, anal, etiquette for sex clubs. We field listener questions and we have this incredible geek-tastic, soul feeding conversation about non-sexual kink and how we can access so much more pleasure and connection, and intimacy and even erotic energy when we expand our ideas about sex and touch and who are allowed to do those things with. I love this conversation. 

Dawn Serra: Of course, you can watch Luna live for free on O.school. She is one of the educators. She has a great weekly stream called Fuck Like A Goddess. I also am streaming every single Wednesday. I have a show called Pop Culture Undressed. Last week, we geeked out all about the Twilight series and some of the things that it taught us, especially as such a huge cultural movement about love and relationships, and sex and the morality of it all. This coming week, I’m going to be talking all about the phenomenon of the Bachelor. It’s been around for 22 seasons. So, what does that tell us about America and how we feel about love even when it’s completely fabricated? I also have some streams coming up on O.school about pegging in Hollywood movies, John Hughes’ ‘80s films, and so much more. If you want to grab any of my workshops, also remember that you can head to dawnserra.com. I have my brand new porn workshop available there plus a relationship charter, a relationship reconnection workbook, a workshop all about anal, and so much more. So be sure to check that out. 

So let me tell you a little bit about Luna and then we will dive into this week’s episode. Plus, Patreon supporters, I want you to know that Luna and I recorded exclusive content for you. So if you support at the $3 level and above, you can hear our wonderful chat all about water sports. She really likes piss play and she has been featured on a Vice video talking about it, and teaches about it. So, I thought that would be a really fun bonus conversation for Patreon supporters. So be sure to head over to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to hear all about piss play with Luna and/or to support the show so that you can grab access. 

Dawn Serra: So, Luna Matatas is a sex and pleasure educator, crafting goddess and burlesque performing wannabe. She celebrates femininity, sex, and body positivity, and all things that glitter. Luna packs over 10 years of experience internationally and locally in health and sexuality education. She takes a playful, realistic, and open-minded approach to adult education. As a self identified pleasure pusher, Luna facilitates accessible, judgment-free, and safe spaces for people to be curious about their bodies, desires, and relationships with themselves and others. 

Her workshops are refreshingly funny, warm, and inviting. She loves hugs and is terrified of spiders and eggplant, which I wish I had had a chance to ask her about when we were talking because I think eggplant’s delicious. I love that she’s terrified of it. But, that brings me joy and delight. So here is my conversation with Luna and then if you’re a supporter on Patreon, be sure to head to Patreon to hear the rest. 

Dawn Serra: Welcome to Sex Gets Real, Luna. I am super excited for our chat today. 

Luna Matatas: Oh my gosh, Me too. Me too. 

Dawn Serra: Because we’re going to talk about butt stuff and sex clubs, and strap-ons and threesomes. For our Patreon supporters, there’s going to be a whole separate combo about watersports and piss play. So, we’re going to talk about a lot of this stuff today. 

Luna Matatas: I’m super pumped. 

Dawn Serra: So here’s where I want to start: You make the “Peg the Patriarchy” shirts, right? 

Luna Matatas: I do, yeah. 

Dawn Serra: Those are some of my favorite shirts that pretty much exist in the world today.

Luna Matatas: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Dawn Serra: I love it so much. I would love to know what inspired you to make those shirts and what the response has been, because every person that I see wearing it I’m like, “Well, automatically, I know you’re cool.”

Luna Matatas: I wanted an international symbol for cool and so… It came to me because I really wanted to find a way to marry my interest in equity and social justice, and also sex. So some people interpret Peg the Patriarchy as way more sexual and some people interpret it as way more kind of a protest to the patriarchy. So, I guess it falls somewhere in between for me. Because I originally was lying around. It was one of those – you’re sitting in your underwear and thinking. I love creating and I’m a communicator by trade so words really make me hot. All of a sudden, I came up with this alliteration of Peg the Patriarchy and I thought, “Yeah, it needs a good pegging. It’s not going to peg itself.”

Dawn Serra: Fact.

Luna Matatas: Yeah, fact. The idea totally stemmed from this idea of subversion and really looking at how do we challenge systems that are not advantageous to the majority of people, if I’m using them against them? So basically, by subverting it. For me, even in my own kinky role play – I love subversion role play. I like the idea of having an identity of power that I don’t normally have in a day to day life and also matching that and playing with someone else’s identity of power that they choose to surrender within our kinky play.

Dawn Serra: So is that where a whole bunch of your femme dom stuff comes in? 

Luna Matatas: Totally. I stumbled upon femme domming after thinking of myself as a submissive for many many years, and I still have those fantasies and I still enjoy that kind of play. But femme domming, for me, really unlocked all of these access points to things like subversion role play and to things like, “Wow, I can experience all of the intensity of being in a different kind of identity that also makes me feel erotic.”

Dawn Serra: I love that of getting to have that mind fuck in social justice lens, but at the same time really centering it in your pleasure and the erotic. What a delicious marriage.

Luna Matatas: Yeah, it’s so yummy. It’s so yummy.

Dawn Serra: Okay, so because Peg the Patriarchy is talking about pegging and butt stuff, I know that you have your buttstravaganza coming up. So for people who are listening to this on release day, on Sunday, your buttstravaganza is going to be Monday on O.school. Is that right?

Luna Matatas: Yes, January 15th is my birthday and so, I decided to have it as my buttday. So I’m doing a buttstravaganza stream around, how can we seduce the anus, how can we flirt with the butt. And also I’ll be doing a bunch of butt giveaways – all kinds of butt stuff for anyone that’s going tuning in.

Dawn Serra: Oh, that’s awesome. Okay, so can we talk a little bit about seducing the anus? Because I get lots of listener questions from folks who are kind of like, “So my partner brought up that they want to try butt stuff, but I’m pretty nervous,” or “I’ve done it once or twice and it hurt really bad. It was terrible. So I don’t know if I can do it again.” So, for people who aren’t super familiar with the butt stuff, what are some of your tips and experiences around seducing something that might feel really scary for people?

Luna Matatas: Yeah, and I totally appreciate it. It feels very scary. I think most people’s or a lot of people’s experiences with anal for the first time, especially penetration, has been painful and there’s a lot of porn that centers around painal. We think that anal does have to be involving some kind of pain. I think a lot of activities, especially kinky activities and things where we’re learning a technique, we often focus so much on the activity and we forget that there’s a person attached to this butthole that we’re trying to get into. So, we lose all of the ability to bring in pleasure from setting the mood and connecting to the person, and connecting to the rest of the body while we’re focused on this one delicious area. 

So a lot of my tips are around really focusing on the non-penetrative play because once the person gets comfortable with, not only their physical discomfort and opening up the sphincters that guard our anus, but even mentally. There’s a lot of shame around the anus, there’s a lot of taboo, there’s a lot of fear around unhygienic things coming out of it, and farting or shitting on someone. So there’s hang-ups for the person receiving it and then there’s hang-ups for the person who is giving it. 

Luna Matatas: So I find things like a crack massage or butthole teasing, or even kissing around the bum cheeks or the backs of the legs or down the lower back. So, we’re expanding the geography of pleasure for the bum area can help you build a relationship and even learn the person’s responses. Because a lot of times, maybe someone’s in a position where you can’t read their face or they’re not communicative with words during anal play. So you don’t really know, “Are they just taking it so that we can get this done? Are they wanting to prove that they can do this?” So for some people, it can be really frustrating, even if they’re into it mentally, and their body just isn’t cooperating that day. So anal pleasure doesn’t have to stop if penetration is impossible. There’s so much more that people can do with all the little nerves that are puckered around the opening of the anus.

Dawn Serra: I think something else that has been helpful for me is realizing it can be completely silly. Even though it’s the butt, we don’t have to take it super seriously. We can laugh, and if you fart it’s a funny thing and not, “Now the night’s ruined,” thing. Even like, “Oh, that feels good. That feels good. Whoa, okay, too much,” and then giggles. I think taking that, “I’m going to try and do the thing.” Then feeling either a success or a failure depending on what happened that day. Because even in my experience, some days it’s way easier than others and it’s just my body being, “Yep,” or, “Nope.”

Luna Matatas: Yeah, I totally agree with a playful, fun approach to butt play and really feeling like, you can laugh at yourself and you can laugh at your partner, and you can laugh at the butt toy that fell on the floor, and the wipes that are cold or whatever – whatever is going on. It can also lead to conversations that are like, “Oh, that didn’t feel good, but I liked when you were doing this other thing.” So improving the feedback loop through playfulness, I think, is super, super fun and super hot.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, I agree. I agree that it’s super hot and just letting go of those goals, right? Maybe an erect penis or dildo isn’t going to go in your ass anytime soon. But, that doesn’t mean it can’t still be really fun and interesting to play with fingers and other toys. For me and my body, I pretty much have to have the wand on my clit in order to get the anal started. Then once it’s happening and my body’s like, “Oh, okay. This is okay, this is pleasurable,” then, all in no holds barred. But, I up for my body – 95% of the time, I have to start with the wand on my clit. So, I discovered that just by playing and talking to other people, and reading things. So I love this invitation of, we can be curious and playful and sometimes it can be serious, but let’s not start there.

Luna Matatas: Yeah, I totally agree. I think that there’s a lot of hang-ups, also, around who enjoys anal and who gives anal. Those stereotypes can prevent us from being a little bit more silly, playful, and honest. I love giving anal as much as I like receiving anal. Depending on the connection or the person that I’m with, that could mean eating their ass or it could just be a finger or it could be pegging with a finger instead of a full on strap-on like, maybe their eyes are too big for their butt.

Dawn Serra: Exactly, ‘cause that’s a thing.

Luna Matatas: Yeah, totally. Oh, this big thing. I want this big thing. I’m like, “Well, let’s try a finger.”

Dawn Serra: I just want to name, too, just like everybody’s vulvas are different and can accommodate different numbers of fingers and sizes of dildos and fists – same with our butts. We might see somebody who has a similar build to us and think, “Oh, well, if they can do it, I can do it.” Well, your body’s totally unique, so let’s start small and stay curious and experiment without going all in with, “I need the 10 inch cock.”

Luna Matatas: So true. That’s true. Yeah, I love that approach.

Dawn Serra: Okay, so because part of pegging is strap-ons and I know that you really enjoy teaching strap-on basics and strap-on sex, and that’s something that I have really developed a love for over the years. It’s so funny. Every frickin time I put my strap-on on, there’s this immediate shift in my energy of like – all of a sudden kind of being like, “Yeah, I have a cock. That’s right.” I like stroking it and walking around with it on, and it’s just this really fun costume almost, that allows me to tap into a very different part of myself. So I’d love to know what’s your experience with strap-ons, how you got started, and why you love teaching it so much.

Luna Matatas: Yeah, I have a very similar experience to you with when I strap-on my cock. It makes me feel like it’s a conduit to all of the phallic power that I don’t normally have access to in my day to day life. 

Dawn Serra: I love that so much. 

Luna Matatas: I’m like, “This thing will let me take over the world.” I want to hit people with it, I want to poke people with it. I walk around and I helicopter in front of the mirror. I think for a lot of people, that embodiment of the costume or the power can feel intimidating too. So I often get women who are in my class and they want to strap it on for their partner and if their partner has a penis, then there’s a particular dynamic going on there too. And, they’re afraid that somehow it will threaten or take away from their femininity or their access to their feminine power. For me, it actually enhances it. I think that’s the shame that we’ve learned around what are the things that make someone womanly or feminine or femme-identified; and that they’re often things that are in-contrast with the phallic power that’s out there. 

So for me, feeling like I get to penetrate someone – it’s just as sensual as when I get penetrated. I’m like, “Wow, I’m inside this person’s body,” even though it’s not my actual biological dick. But, I’m bringing this closeness and openness to this person’s body. So, I was really turned on by the idea of being able to be the person that’s doing the penetrating and I totally had a lot of body shame around that. I’m a plus size person and I have a belly, so it was difficult sometimes to look at centering attention with a cock in a harness around my area that I was really shy about. So I found that was something that I had to be mindful of what I was fucking with a strap-on or thinking about it and just be aware that I’m holding that shame, and what are the ways that it was holding me back.

Luna Matatas: One of the ways was that I wasn’t embracing thrusting in the same way. I wasn’t thinking about moving my body in a sensual or sexual way while I was thrusting. I was just trying to get it in and get it in there.

Dawn Serra: “It’s in. Now what?”

Luna Matatas: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Now, what do I do? So in a lot of my classes, I also teach how to bring sensuality to pegging and that sensuality can still be present if you’re playing with a rougher scene or you like rough body play, or you’re playing with the kidnapping scene or some other kind of power element. The body contact and the dialogue or the dirty talk, or maybe other costume elements or using a mirror, or anything that kind of brings the aesthetics into the same line the kind of pleasure that you’re trying to deliver. So I really liked teaching it because it’s got a lot of equipment and gear, and it’s really confusing for people who are shopping for strap-ons. Your tendency is going to be to buy the cheapest nylon plastic one because you’re not sure if you want to commit. But there are other ways to explore with pegging before you decide to do that or I have a lower priced one that I use that’s machine washable. It was a great investment for me to spend 60 bucks on something that I could use and evolve from.

I like giving people some tips so that they spend less money and also they find the thing that’s going to suit their type of play and their bodies. You may feel really sexy in a panty harness, maybe a leather harness feels too butchy for you. So, what are the pros and cons of using different harnesses for beginners, the positions. So many different elements to it and I find that it’s also one of those skills that you can evolve. You can get really fancy like pinkies up with pegging if you want it to.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, I’m so glad you mentioned the thing about being plus-sized and all of a sudden having all of this focus on an area that you have some shame around. Because I definitely have that experience too. I have a tummy and I can’t use a five-inch or a six-inch cock because it just wouldn’t work with my body and so I need longer thinner dildos. That takes a little bit of searching for to find the ones that I want, and the size and the colors that I enjoy. So that I can see it and reach it, and be in positions I want to be in when I’m pegging someone. The first time I tried pegging, it was like, “I just want to do it right for this other person.” Now it’s a lot more like, “This is super mutual. Of course, I want my partner to enjoy this, but I also really want to enjoy this and feel powerful. 

I agree, I still carry a little bit of shame around parts of myself that I’ve spent a lot of my life trying to hide. But, I need to be comfortable. So, what do I need to make this a really comfortable experience so that I can do the thrusting and do the things for a really long time if I want to?

Luna Matatas: Yeah, I totally agree. The opening up areas of learning about thigh harnesses and even other ways to stimulate the activity of pegging before you move up to investing in whatever you want to invest in, has been a real joy for me; in learning with participants and what some of their concerns are that they bring to the workshop about even how to get started, how do I even bring this up with my partner that I want to be pegged or want them to peg me? I get so many emails from people who are like, “I want my partner to do this but they’re not comfortable with it.” What’s the conversation? What’s the discomfort and what’s going on that’s outside of that, that maybe their needs aren’t getting met? So they’re like, “Screw you. I don’t want to do this fantasy for you. Where’s my male-male gangbang?” I don’t know.

Dawn Serra: For people who are wondering how do I bring up strap-on sex with a partner, in a few weeks, I’ll be livestreaming all about pegging in Hollywood movies on O.school.

Luna Matatas: Oh, I can’t wait for that one.

Dawn Serra: I know, I’m so excited. Yeah. So people can tune into that and then be like, “I guess, I need to watch a few of these movies and then we can talk about it.”

Luna Matatas: Exactly. You can make a pegging movie night.

Dawn Serra: So what did these things have in common?

Luna Matatas: Exactly, yeah.

Dawn Serra: Something else that– I think I’ve mentioned this on the show a few times, but I just want to mention it for people who are new to this conversation too. As someone who was raised as a girl and socialized to be female in all of my people pleasingness, and always have a smile on your face, it’s been a lifelong journey for me to be able to advocate for myself. Both as a woman and as a fat person, sometimes advocating for myself and articulating needs can be really, really challenging. 

One of the things that pegging actually really helped me around was, I used to feel pretty self-conscious about in the moment adjustment requests, because I didn’t want the person I was having sex with to feel bad. Because of course, the scarcity mentality was, “If I make them feel bad, then they won’t want to be with me anymore.” Pegging – what I noticed is that most dudes are not hesitant at all to offer a minute, very on the spot requests for comfort of, “Okay, that’s a little too deep. I need you to slow down. Can you hold still for a minute? I just need to adjust. Okay, I’m ready. Start slow. Okay, you can go faster.” And that narrative that’s happening in the moment. It didn’t make me feel bad at all, because I want to respect their body and make it feel good. By doing what they were asking me to, I was giving a better pegging experience and that helped teach me that the same is true when I’m the person that’s being penetrated or eaten out or touched. That if I offer those adjustments, that unless I’m with a really shitty partner, that person’s going to be like, “Oh, I can make this better. I can do this better. Let me do that. So that we’re both having more fun.” It was a really wonderful modeling that I got to witness and then realize, “Oh, I get to do that too.”

Luna Matatas: Yeah, I love that pegging did that for you? I think feedback is so important in so many activities but especially because I can’t feel what you’re feeling inside, when my silicone dildo is in you. I need that verbal feedback.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I got this listener email. and I know you teach about this. So, I would love to read the email and then talk a little bit about sex clubs. 

Luna Matatas: Sure. 

Dawn Serra: Okay. So I got this listener email a little while back. That said, “I have a question that’s been killing me.” 

“Hey, Dawn. First, I’d like to say that my name is Victor and that I’m new to your podcast. I love it. I’ve gone through some of your older episodes and the ones that interested me the most, were the ones about swinging, group sex, and sex clubs. I’ve been wondering, how exactly do you find places like that and how do you usually get into those places? Can you get into clubs like that if you’re 18 like myself? Or do you have to be a specific age to get in? Thanks for your time, Victor.” 

Dawn Serra: So I know that you like doing a class called “Intro to Sex Clubs.” Where you help people learn all about stuff about how to get in and what’s the etiquette, and so I thought this might be a nice way to work Victor’s question and for us to get to hear all of your amazing advice.

Luna Matatas: Yeah, that’s so perfect. I’m so glad Victor asked this because I feel like so many people are curious about this across generations. So we get couples who are looking to spice up their relationship for sex club, you get singles who are interested in either hooking up or looking for group things, or lots of sex clubs have theme nights. So it’s a great way to experience fetish fantasies or unicorning or whatever it is with like-minded people, who are also looking for sex. But that there’s also so much about sex clubs that can be awkward as fuck. So, Victor, it’s going to be awkward. 

I think part of the reason is – I mean even finding sex clubs depends on where you are and what the laws are around it. So sex clubs, sometimes in different states or provinces can be relegated to certain areas. So they have to be outside or a certain amount of feet away from other places because they’re considered licensed on premise sex places. So it’s a place where people are having sex on premise. So it can be hard to find for some people. It can be hard to get into, it can be hard to get to. Particularly for cis gendered males, a lot of sex clubs have set up pricing, that’s prohibitive to some standard males and also, certain nights where they’re just not allowed to go. So there’s debates around whether or not that’s fair or whatever. I mean, the intention is so that it doesn’t get swarmed with with males and it can be an uncomfortable environment for anyone who isn’t socialized as a cis gender male. Because you’re all of a sudden, in a space where you’re naked or half naked, or in a slutty lingerie around a bunch of strangers. And that can be really triggering for the types of unwanted attention and interaction that a lot of people who’ve been social female experience on a day to day basis just wearing a turtleneck.

Dawn Serra: Right.

Luna Matatas: It can be super intimidating to be like, “Hi, what’s your name? Want to fuck?” “Hi, what’s your name? Want to fuck?” There’s a lot of a lack of etiquette on how to behave in a sex club. So for Victor in being new to the scene, I would definitely do some internet research in whatever area is accessible and find out what clubs there are. Because some clubs also offer an online chat community and so you can get to know people before you actually go to the club. I would definitely show up at the club and expect to be spending a good two hours because it’s got the potential to have a community feel to it. You have to socialize beyond having just sexual goals. So I often recommend for people they have a social goal, a sensual goal, and a sexual goal. 

So the social goal could be like, “I’m going to talk with three people tonight and just make small talk with no intention of trying to fuck them.” And that can really help make you look, A, not a creeper – you’re not just walking around wanking under your towel hoping someone’s going to want to help you out.

Dawn Serra: Fact. 

Luna Matatas: Another fact. It also helps you meet other people and appreciate the setting of a sex club is also a place for friendliness. It’s not necessarily – it doesn’t operate the same way as a bathhouse. So bathhouses tend to be frequented by men who like having sex with men and the environment there is very different than a sex club. Then, a sensual goal could be maybe you’re going to offer someone a massage or they’re going to offer you a massage, and you’re not going to go for the gold. You’re not going to go for breasts or genitals. You’re going to stay on shoulders or feet or ankles and asking permission, “So I would like to give you a massage. Is that something you’re interested in?” “Yes.” “Well, where can I massage you because I was thinking about your calves or your feet. I’m really good with big muscles or I like feet,” or whatever it is. That can be, also, a nice way to be like, “Oh, I connected with someone. Maybe I didn’t hit it and I didn’t get an orgasm out of it.” But you’re practicing these skills that we don’t have social narratives around. 

We don’t have skills or classes on how do you behave in a semi-nude hyper-sexual environment? We barely have that for flirting or bars. We don’t even know how to behave properly when we’re trying to pursue someone. Then, a sexual goal may be you’re there to hook up with a couple and you really want to be in a threesome or you want to be part of something. So also thinking more broadly about beyond penis and vagina. Maybe you want to be part of a couple as a voyeur. Maybe you want to be part of a couple as just the person there who’s doing sensual stuff or maybe you’re doing oral or maybe you’re helping the spanking. So there’s so much broader than just going in and thinking, “I want to bump genitals with someone.”

Dawn Serra: I totally agree. So much that you said that’s so important. I have been in clubs and dungeons before where there’s the token super fucking creepy guy who literally shuffles up to every single woman. He’s like, “Hi. You want to fuck?” And then you’re like, “No.” And then they go right to the person standing directly next to you. “Hi, you want to do something?” You watch him go around the room and it’s just so terrible feeling. There’s also the people who – of course, people are there to have fun and to socialize and maybe to have sex or to do something kinky. So if they’re having sex or doing something kinky, you have an opportunity to see that unfold. But don’t shuffle up close to the action and stand over someone or try to interrupt or try to give compliments or have that weird, “I want to be part of this vibe.” Let people have their space. Stand back. Appreciate it like art. “All right, that’s really interesting or really beautiful” or “I’m feeling really aroused,” because we can feel aroused without having to touch ourselves. 

Luna Matatas: Absolutely. If you’re too close to – if you’re close enough that someone could come on you, then you’re too close. 

Dawn Serra: Yep. Agreed. I think it’s really a wonderful thing to have those tiered goals of – ultimately, maybe I’d like to have a sexual exchange with someone. But the likelihood that’s going to happen, especially when you’re new is pretty low. So, how can I get to know people? Because exactly like you said, usually when I go to those spaces, I am ridiculously guarded. I only want to interact with people that I already know and that I have relationships with. And, barring something really unusual. The likelihood I’m going to say yes to somebody that I don’t know or have only talked to a few times to pretty much anything is very low. 

So I think one of the beautiful things, too, about sex clubs is, one, it gives you an opportunity to develop rejection resilience. If you go in knowing almost every single person here is pretty guarded, then the likelihood that you’re going to hear a lot of no’s is high. If you know that going in, then you can practice not taking that personally. I can tell you for a fact, when I see people manage rejection really well in a situation like that, it makes a huge impression on me. So, take that rejection gracefully. The more gracefully you do that, the more people are going to see, “This person isn’t just here to try and use me like a disposable toy or a hole that they can put their penis into.” I think that it ups your chances to actually having interesting conversations and meeting people, and maybe engaging in some physical things that aren’t sex and that’s delicious too. Of course, men come in entitled and feeling like they have access, but when you go to a space where lots of people really know each other, and the rules and the consent are very centered, those dudes get shot down pretty damn quickly.

Luna Matatas: Yes, yes, absolutely. I mean, as a woman even though I teach in sex clubs, I’m teaching this weekend – I walk in and I immediately am guarded and shut down. And for good reason. Sometimes I see complaints on discussion threads about how it’s so hard to get laid and, “Nobody wants to talk to me” “Everyone’s a snob and couples are…” A lot of that behavior is as a result of not really knowing what the etiquette is and people who do walk in entitled, and people who make other people feel unsafe. So some clubs are a lot better at nurturing an environment either by their physical space. So they have more spaces like nooks and crannies where people can actually do sensual things, and it’s not just a bunch of mattresses or beds. Other places have different ideas around what consent looks like. Is it okay, because someone’s wearing a very low back Teddy when I’m saying hi to them and I’m introducing myself, if I put my hand on their lower back? 

So I would say just because someone’s skin is more exposed and because you’re in that environment, you’re going to shake my hand. That’s what I want. I don’t want your hands on my thighs. It’s not a free for all. So lots of people have had really negative experiences. I think people going in who are new to the scene need to be mindful of that. They may have not contributed to it, but you don’t want to add to people’s past trauma.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think it’s worth mentioning: just because you’re going to a sex club or a dungeon, it doesn’t mean anybody owes you sex, even if you paid money to get in, and even if you paid money multiple times to get in. It’s not a vending machine. It’s a social space with an opportunity to engage with people in a way that we don’t usually get to engage with them. But you still have to engage with people and treat them like human beings, and be respectful. 

I think for Victor, specifically, if you find a place near you that has a space where people can engage in sexual activity, be it kinky or vanilla or a swingers club – knowing just because you go and you pay the entrance fee, doesn’t mean sex happens. You have to still do a lot of the work of being a decent human being, and listening to people’s stories, and making friendships, and developing relationships, and then maybe some fun things might happen.

Luna Matatas: Yeah, yeah. Going in looking for a warm body to masturbate in is not attractive. It’s just not attractive. Also, you have a ton of competition. I mean, there’s lots of people there who have learned the scene, who are in the scene. If you’re shy or introverted, that kind of environment can be really tough for you to find out what are your elements of social lube for this situation. But, even if you hang back and you’re smiling and making eye contact, that says something about your presence.

Dawn Serra: I love your suggestion of checking out if the local community has a chat room or even a board on Fetlife that they use a lot. Because I think one of the most exhausting things that you can do is to show up to one of these spaces and then expect the people there to do the labor of teaching you how to be in the space. The “I didn’t know better” doesn’t work in most situations. So you’ve got to do a little bit of that work ahead of time.

Luna Matatas: Yes, I totally agree.

Dawn Serra: I recently had Bex Caputo on the show and we were talking about platonic kink. That got a lot of people really super interested. Because I think a lot of people don’t know that kink and DS can be non-sexual. I know that non-sexual DS is something that you teach. I would love it if you could talk a little bit about your experiences of non-sexual DS and of course, we can have lots of non-sexual DS that then has some sex but then goes back to non-sexual. But, I just want to learn from you what non-sexual DS looks like. Because so many people were like, “Holy crap, I didn’t know that this was an option. Maybe I can do this with my friends.” 

Luna Matatas: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I’m so I’m so excited you asked about that. Because I was surprised that people were interested in it too. I teach a class on non-sexual submission and domination, and it’s one of my most popular ones. Even for people who are very experienced in kink or for newbies who are like, “Well, I don’t know if I want to do sex with this,” but the idea of whatever kink or fetish they’re interested in is really appealing to them. So it can be like a gateway into navigating things. That’s how it was for me when I started exploring femme domming. I was like, “I don’t know what to do. Is there like a checklist or like a menu? What do I do?” I really stayed at the non-sexual side because I wanted to stay in my head and I wanted to be able to master technique and also master learning about what motivates my submissive. It can work the other way, if you’re a non-sexual submissive and you’re looking to have a non-sexual dominant. You’re also learning what inspires this person’s dominance and does it meet your type of submission? 

So it gave me a chance to explore identity. It gave me a chance to explore what activities I’m into. It gave me a chance to explore what type of submissive I’m into. My first real experience was with non-sexual service submissives. So service submissives really love any type of – anything that they’re doing for you and it doesn’t have to be sexual. So they’re not giving me any body contact, they’re not giving me any sexual things like oral. But I have a service submissive – a lifestyle submissive who’s one of my partners and he is a crossdressing maid. He believes in female supremacy as part of his kinky role play. So his ideal fantasy was to be able to serve a goddess or queen or a female dominant in a way that makes her life easier. So he likes this idea of just showing up, getting dressed into his maid’s outfit, cleaning my bathroom and kitchen, sometimes making me breakfast or whatever his tasks are for the day. I was like, “I don’t see anything wrong with this.” 

Luna Matatas: It was very unnerving for me. It was tough for me to receive service in that way where I would just lie on the couch and maybe call him names or whatever we had negotiated was part of his scene. Not everyone that’s interested in non-sexual submission is interested in humiliation and degradation, but that happened to be part of his particular bag of interest. But it was interesting to explore themes like objectification, things crossdressing, or things that have an arousing or erotic experience for one person but it doesn’t necessarily have it for me. I don’t look at him and I’m not aroused or I’m not turned on genitally, but I’m turned on – I’ve developed this arousal from the power that I get, that this person is genuinely here in his subspace and in his fantasy space, and emotionally invested in playing out this role that he lives in a world of female supremacy for the two hours a week that he’s here. 

So I find non-sexual submission and domination gives you a great high from the themes, the moods, the flavors. You can easily translate those into a sexual scene if you want it to or you can transpose those feelings and moods into other kinds of sex that you have where you get way more connected to what the intention is behind the non-sexual submission and domination. Other non-sexual submissives like when we brainstorm in my workshops, people bring up things like foot stools or human furniture or human toilets or human urinals or puppies or pet play. Also different kinds of things around pay pigs – so people who like to be financially dominated and there’s not a sex element involved. Cuckolding can also straddle and non-sexual and sexual. So the definition for sexual is fairly loose. I usually describe it in a class and that orgasm is not necessarily the goal of the play, and nobody has to be naked, nobody has to be in sexual positions. But you can make it whatever you want. It might be the non-sexual submission or domination is part of your foreplay and maybe that leads you into something. 

Luna Matatas: Other types can include – I had a man-slave and so his idea was that he also liked to be very useful to women, but then wanted to be beat up afterwards. I was like, “I don’t know how to do this.” So I had to go take a class and then he put up like a curtain. I don’t know how to do those things either. I didn’t bother to take class for that but I took a class on how to do proper body rough play. And afterwards wanted his balls beat up. So I teach cock and ball torture. So I was like, “Okay, I know how to do that safely.” But I was confused. 

Sometimes it takes me a while to understand what their motivation is, and I think letting go of – how did you get this way? How did you get this fantasy? What’s the pathology that made you like this thing is actually really liberating in non-sexual submission and domination. Some people have a story that enlightens and infuses into the present day fantasy that they want to use, that their sisters dress them up in clothing or did whatever. Other people are like, “I don’t know. I just like this.” So I’ve learned to just trust that and then invite them to tell me more when they’re comfortable so that I get more information to make the fantasy more intense and erotic for both of us.

Dawn Serra: I think it’s so interesting what you said about how you’re not sexually aroused by your lovely maid, but that there is pleasure and arousal in the power and the exchange. I think that that’s so important, because so much of our culture because we’re so sex negative means that we’re also so super obsessed with sex as the answer to so many things. I think we often place sex as like the pinnacle of pleasure and the erotic in our human experience. It can be, but there’s so many other pathways to connection and pleasure, and the erotic. Sometimes they have to do with art or with dance or with movement or with food, because food can be so frickin sensual and erotic – flavors and textures. But then also this opportunity to engage in non-sexual DS and non-sexual kink where maybe it’s truly platonic, where it’s friends just wanting an opportunity to have some sensation because it feels like a release for stress or anxiety or loneliness. Maybe it’s this element of the non-sexual DS where you’ve got someone who just really wants to serve and it’s not about the sex. It’s about the energy and the exchange. 

The opportunities that we have to create things that feel important and fun, and curious and different, and new are endless. But so many of us are just so focused on, “How do I get something into this hole and move it around a little bit? How do I get people to give me that opportunity?” As good as that can be, as great as that can be – there’s so many interesting things available to us that we just don’t even know are an option, because we haven’t given ourselves an opportunity to just dream that big.

Luna Matatas: Yes, totally. I think some people get off on the fact that the non-sexual submission and domination is also a denial of their orgasm or denial of their genital pleasure or typical pleasure. And you’re so right, the access to these erotic spaces and erotic turn-ons that we don’t necessarily prioritize when we’re having other types of sex are so much more heightened in non-sexual submission and domination. I had an experience just before Christmas with one of my best friends who’s a gay man, so we’re not we’re not sexual at all, and we ended up deciding that we wanted to beat up someone who enjoys playing as a slave. 

So we had this person over and it was very interesting because it was also a safety thing for me. I can’t always feel safe and comfortable when I have a hookup. I still feel like this is Stranger Danger stuff. So it’s interesting to have someone else there, to be with someone new and to also riff off of each other. There were times where I was kicking balls and he was punching the dude’s ass. It was really interesting to go to that space and be witnessed by someone else but not be sexually charged to that person. Afterwards, I felt the same kind of erotic exhaustion that I would have felt had I had marathon fucking sex.

Dawn Serra: Yes, yeah. I think that’s so important to name. I was at a play party once where I got to hold space for three people that wanted to do this really intense ritual. The rest of us got to hold space in this really powerfully erotic way and witness. Afterwards, I felt that same kind of “come down” that I feel from being flogged or from being physically involved in something. I think that’s so powerful and something else that people don’t often give themselves the opportunity to experience of – just because we’re naked or just because we’re doing things that for some other people might be sexual – it doesn’t mean it has to be sexual. Iif it’s not sexual, it doesn’t mean that you also won’t still have some kind of release or pleasure or movement inside of your body where you feel, “Oh, yeah. That was really satisfying. That was really good. I’m ready to go get some pancakes or something.” We don’t allow ourselves to have those experiences because they don’t fit in the script of what our society tells us we should be wanting.

Luna Matatas: Right. Yes, I totally agree. I think a lot of people see my workshop sometimes and they’re like, “Why would I do that if I don’t want to have sex?” For me, it’s like, if there’s another way for me to be turned on and get pleasure, I want to know. I want to uncover all those crevices and stimulate things and try things. If it feels safe going into it and I enjoy myself, then maybe I’ll try it again. It depends on the person’s connection too. Some people inspire me to feel really dominant or dominant from a mean perspective or dominant from the more nurturing perspective. On the occasion when I sub, that also has a particular inspiration too.

Dawn Serra: Oh my gosh. Yeah, there’s just – Oh my gosh, I just want so many people to– We are such a touch starved society. We feel like touch is only for very specific types of relationships in very specific ways. It’s one of the reasons why cis dudes have so much interest in sex. It’s because it’s the only place where it’s safe for them to be touched. When we start inviting in these non-sexual exchanges where we get to do these really fun, interesting things with friends or with acquaintances, or with a group of people that we just met, but we’re at a workshop – it’s an opportunity to be touched and seen and to connect. I mean, that’s just such a fundamental part of health and the human experience. So, by allowing ourselves to get curious about, “Well, what are all the non-sexual ways I might be able to explore this?” Suddenly, there’s so many more people that are available to you to be connecting with and to enjoy time with. I mean, it just feels so rich.

Luna Matatas: Yes, I totally agree. I feel like being able to co-create those scenes, it can expand your own imagination as you try and realize someone else’s fantasy. So, the sissy maid thing – I just thought it was interesting when I saw his post and he’s been serving me for about four years. It’s really wonderful to find something. At first, I wasn’t into it. I was like, “I don’t get why does this.” I felt very unconfident in that kind of role play – not unsafe, but definitely unconfident. It really helped me, also, build my confidence around being able to say what kind of domming I am comfortable with. It explored and expanded my interest in erotic humiliation, but that’s very playful. He’ll be cleaning mirrors and I’ll say, “Sissy, sing Aretha Franklin while you’re cleaning the mirrors.” It’s very entertaining. 

It is a lot of emotional labor. I think people forget that kink, especially if you’re topping, is a lot of emotional labor and being present and connected to your submissive. Especially when they go to the spaces where they’re surrendering emotionally or mentally. Are you there with them? Are you making sure that you’re still inviting and giving them permission to communicate – does something not feel good? Does something feel extra good?

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I got this question about a long distance virgin relationship, and I was wondering if you wanted to help me field it. 

Luna Matatas: Sure. 

Dawn Serra: Okay. So Hopeless Lover wrote in with a subject line of “Long Distance Virgin.” And it says, 

“Hi, Dawn. I just started listening to your podcast and love it. I wanted to ask for some advice. About six months ago, I started dating an amazing guy. He’s perfect in every way. I could honestly see myself spending the rest of my life with him. We’re long distance. We met this way and have been making it work for the last few months. A few months into our relationship after messing around but never fully having sex, I asked him why he wouldn’t give in. He told me he was a virgin. We’re in our late 20s so I was shocked at the beginning but open-minded. So finally a month ago, we had sex for the first time. He didn’t quite know what he was doing, but that’s expected with a virgin. Because we’re long distance, we don’t get the chance to practice a lot. So this past weekend, we tried having sex for the second time and he couldn’t come. He said it was due to being used to masturbating a certain way, but I can’t help but feel like I’m not pleasing him in bed. Have any advice? Thanks. Hopeless Lover.”

Luna Matatas: Oh, there’s so much in that. First of all, that’s such a cute story.

Dawn Serra: I know, isn’t it?

Luna Matatas: I love that and I love that they found each other. That’s so adorable. What I hear in that, too, is the pressure that virginity has put on us and the concept of virginity, and this idea that we can have done other things with our bodies and created sexual and sensual spaces but we’re still virgins. It’s this build up to this thing, which many of us still hold as really important and that’s okay. But, I think it does put so much pressure in an expectation for continuing to have really good sex. We’ve neve learned how to do that. We’ve not talked about it because we’re so busy trying to be virgins and protect our sanctity around this thing that we’ve been told is really important. 

So I think it’s super understandable that Hopeless Lover is feeling like, “Well, what do we do now? Now, it’s not good.” I think there’s a challenge that happens with long distance relationships where your problems– I was in a long distance relationship for the beginning of my marriage where I was sponsoring my ex-husband, so we were separated for about a year. And so, all of our problems were amplified by distance so things that would have been non-starters was amplified and also all of our intensity around our romance was intensified. So, I think the lens of the long distance relationship can also… I know you talk a lot about that, too, Dawn, and a lot of our other O.school pleasure professionals have great advice around long distance and maintaining connection. But I think that not knowing this person’s body or whatever their history has come with that he may be right and he may be feeling like he’s used to a particular kind of stimulation from his own hand or fist. So that can be really hard to replicate with someone else’s vagina or mouth or someone else’s hand – the stimulation part of it. That could be like a real physical barrier. 

Luna Matatas: There’s also a lot of pressure if when you’re meeting your long distance lover, and you only have two days to fuck each other’s brains out and bond and connect. So that could also be adding to it. I think that there are ways that they can maintain connection throughout that would arouse and engage their sexual selves. So when they meet in person, it’s not like, “Oh, this is the only time we’re being sexual.” They can feel sexual through like writing erotica to each other or sending each other erotica that you’ve read and masturbated to, or sexting about the things that you would like to do when you get together – so different narratives or stories or fantasy-sharing and really getting to know each other beyond your crotches. And talking about the things that you’d like to try or even reminiscing and being like, “I loved when you kissed my neck for five minutes before you did anything else.” Neck kissing, right? Neck kissing. 

I think it’s so wonderful that Hopeless Lover really wants to please their partner and bring pleasure to them. I think one of the great ways to do that is building our own kind of confidence and joy in also receiving pleasure. Because I’m sure he also feels the same way like, “Oh, damn, like I can’t perform.” Also letting go of that orgasm is the final sign that someone has had a really good time. I actually kind of like it because I mean, if someone doesn’t come, I’m like, “Great. Sex wasn’t dependent on the length of your orgasm.” We know that vulvas and vaginas orgasm differently than penises do. So, there could also be a conversation around like, “Okay. Well, you can’t come. What else can we do that feels good for you?” It doesn’t necessarily have to be orgasmic. Maybe we discover, “Are your nipples amazing? Can we read that erotica that I sent to you? Can we read it together while we’re in bed cuddling naked?”

Dawn Serra: Let’s not use orgasm as the measurement to being a good lover. Because there’s so many things that go into a really mutually enjoyable and satisfying sexual encounter and they may or may not involve genitals, they may or may not involve coming. Also, giving yourselves an opportunity to expand your ideas about what sex is, because if he masturbates in a really specific way and that’s how he likes to come, then who’s to say that masturbating in front of you doesn’t count as a sexual exchange of sex? 

Luna Matatas: It’s so hot.

Dawn Serra: Right, I know. Why can’t you be rubbing all the bits and kissing and touching and fingering and using toys? Then, at some point he starts touching himself and you get to touch yourself or watch and talk to him about how you feel watching him do that. Then maybe he comes all over himself and you lay on top of him and kiss him. I mean, there’s so many ways that this could be an amazing, delicious, yummy experience with so much less pressure and expectations around who’s doing what right and who knows how to do what, and whose bodies are doing what. If we’re together so infrequently, then when we’re together, let’s just do whatever we can to minimize pressure and expectations and maximize delight, enjoyment, and connection and all the things that make it feel so much more special and wonderful. Because that time is so limited. So yeah, I love all of your suggestions. 

Luna Matatas: Yeah, totally.

Dawn Serra: I could literally talk to you for two more hours. 

Luna Matatas: Me too. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, but I would love it if you would share with everyone how they can find you online and stay in touch with you.

Luna Matatas: Yeah, for sure. So I’m lunamatatas.com which is like Hakuna Matatas but Luna. I’m that on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and on Fetlife is the only place where I’m different. I’m SomethingShiny on Fetlife. You all get my little secret handle on Fetlife. I love it when people write to me and tell me their stories or have questions. So it’ll be great to stay engaged with your listeners too.

Dawn Serra: Well, I will of course have all of those links at dawnserra.com/ep196 for this episode. Luna, I want to thank you so much for chatting with me. Of course, for Patreon supporters, there’s a little bonus discussion that Luna and I are about to go have about watersports and piss play so be sure to check that out. But thank you for being here.

Luna Matatas: Thank you so much, Dawn. This was so much fun. Thank you everyone for listening. 

Dawn Serra: To everybody, please head to dawnserra.com if you’ve got any comments or questions. You can submit stories and anything you want to know about both anonymously or provide your email address. Sometimes I have a chance to respond. Otherwise, thank you so much for being here and I will talk to you next week. Bye

Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured in this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses. 

As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?