Did you hear last week? CrashPad Series is sponsoring the Explore More Summit: Bodies Edition. It’s free and online, so sign-up today. We’ll spend 5 days going super deep into body politics, self acceptance, fat activism, diet culture, weight stigma, and shedding body shame so we can center our pleasure.

To see the line-up for the summit and to enroll, pop over to exploremoresummit.com. And if you want to see a VERY HOT scene with April and Milcah, head to CrashPadSeries.com and join today.

This week, Sunny Megatron and Ken Melvoin-Berg are here! Which means it’s basically an hour of me laughing hysterically.

We talk about their new sex podcast, American Sex, and some of the guests they’ve had – like the grapefruit lady and a guy whose fetish is death and sex.

Ken talks about how his relationship to kink has changed due to some health concerns, and Sunny talks about menopause and her libido.

We also answer listener questions about pubic hair and fisting. Ken even wows with the history of the merkin.

Looking for my new porn workshop? Pop over here.

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook. It’s true. Oh! And Dawn is on Instagram.

In this episode, Sunny, Ken, and I talk about:

• Sunny & Ken’s new podcast, American Sex. I was just recently on it, too, and we had a REALLY fantastic conversation. Check it out – episode 15.
• Interviewing people from Joycelyn Elders of the Clinton administration to Auntie Angel of the grapefruit blowjob YouTube sensation.
• Ken’s desire to have Sunny try the grapefruit technique on him while wearing a unicorn mask.
• Sunny and Ken’s guest on their show who loves fantasizing about his own death and who is also into robot sex – color me intrigued.
• Death fantasies, smothering fantasies, and how they show up.
• Changing bodies and how you can maintain your kinky lifestyle and sexual activities even if you have a chance in health or ability, because Ken is currently navigating this space.
• Why Ken asking his doctor about sex and his heart condition is just so funny.
• Hand sex and why it’s amazing. We all three agree that intercourse is not our favorite way to do sex, and we discuss why.
• Kink and how to talk about your kinky fantasies and curiosities if you’re just starting to think about it.
• Why Sunny & Ken draw an older audience to their classes and shows. Sometimes age and experience really do matter.
• What menopause has been like for Sunny and why we don’t talk about menopause, aging, and sex nearly enough. Sunny’s orgasms have been changing, as well as her libido.
• Sunny’s favorite joke about butts.
• Listener Pro-Pubes wrote in with a question about how navigate the politics of pubic hair. So many people shame Pro Pubes about their pubic hair and even though they know pubic hair is a personal choice, it can feel terrible to be judged. What can they do? Ken, Sunny, and I weigh in.
• Ken talks about what a merkin is and where it came from. You might be surprised.
• FISTING! Siren wrote in asking about fisting and Ken and Sunny are the perfect guests to help me field this listener question. What’s fisting like and what’s it about?

About Ken Melvoin-Berg & Sunny Megatron:

Superheroes of sex ed, married couple Ken Melvoin-Berg & Sunny Megatron are partners in every sense of the word. In addition to co-producing Showtime’s “Sex with Sunny Megatron,” they initially gained recognition writing and teaching about everyone’s favorite subject, SEX. In their sell-out workshops, their unique brand of “edutainment” plus combined 25+ years of sexuality teaching experience puts students at ease. Each session seamlessly combines their humorous lecturing style, interactive exercises, and the latest sexuality research.

Sunny hosts their Showtime original television series, “Sex with Sunny Megatron,” taking viewers on a journey into the world of adult play, as everyday people expose their deepest and most intimate fantasies. Always honest, funny, and sex-positive, the show provides an interesting, fresh twist on sexual exploration.

Their latest endeavor is their podcast called American Sex that features an eclectic mix of guests from all walks of life. American Sex podcast is available on most major podcasting platforms.

On a more personal note, this dynamic duo are married, parents, occasionally ethically non-monogamous, and lifestyle BDSM enthusiasts.

Want to stay in touch? Check out American Sex Podcast on Twitter and Facebook. You can also visit Sunny’s website sunnymegatron.com. Follow Sunny on Facebook and Twitter and Ken on Twitter.

Photo credit: Mari Blue/ShootX

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!

Hey, it’s Dawn. We are here for another episode of Sex Gets Real. There is so much that I have to tell you about. I am so excited about so many things, but also ridiculously busy because of so many things. So this episode is dropping on Sunday, December 3rd, which means if you’re listening to it live when it drops– It’s not live, but you know what I mean. If you’re listening to it, you still have time to join in the fun for the Explore More Summit Bodies Edition. It kicks off on Monday, December 4th. It’s all online. It’s totally free and it’s fourteen talks with experts all about body positivity, diet culture, weight stigma, centering our pleasure in marginalized bodies. 

Dawn Serra: In fact, one of the speakers is porn performer April Flores, which is super exciting because CrashPadSeries, which is one of my favorite feminist queer porn companies ever, is sponsoring the summit. Of course, if you want to find amazing feminist queer porn that has fat bodies and black bodies and disabled bodies and all the kinds of bodies, you can go to crashpadseries.com. Of course, last week, we heard a super sexy clip from April and her partner, Milcah. But you can actually see April’s talk for free all about being a fat porn performer at the summit. The summit is exploremoresummit.com. You can sign up for free. crashpadseries.com is where you can head to get super rad queer porn. 

Of course, my porn workshop just went live. So if you’re looking for a way to learn about porn that’s ethical, if you want to learn more about feminist porn and what it’s about, if you’re curious why people watch porn and what it means when people watch porn, because I get a lot of questions from concerned partners about what it means when someone’s watching a specific kind of porn or a specific kind of person or hiding their porn even and if you want to find ways to use porn to help your relationship stay super hot and super sexy, this workshop is totally for you. It’s only $24 and it comes with a 45-minute video, a huge workbook full of all kinds of questions and exercises. Plus, there’s some bonuses on shame, a big resource guide and a really rad bonus from the Pleasure Mechanics all about embodied masturbation. There is a link in the show notes for this episode for that. You can check it out. 

Dawn Serra: This week, guess who is here? Sunny Megatron and Ken Melvoin-Berg, who are such favorites whenever I have them at the Explore More Summit. Basically, whenever I’m around them, I laugh non-stop, which is pretty much what you’re about to hear with this episode. It’s just me laughing uncontrollably for large sections of the interview because they are so delightful and so hysterical. We talk about their new show, “American Sex Podcast.” We talk about death fetishes and the infamous grapefruit lady and her blowjob video. We talk about Ken and his changing relationship to kink and Sunny’s menopause. We also field listener questions on pubic hair and the politics of it as well as how to get started with fisting. So there’s a little bit of everything in this episode. It’s amazing. 

And I have a bajillion things going on. If you thought that was the end of what I have, you’re wrong. Because I’m also a pleasure professional for o.school. The really awesome thing about O.school is right now, all of their classes and live streams are totally free. So I am live streaming with them at least once a week, which means you can pop on for free and take live classes with me. Interact with me, ask questions. There’s even a tip jar, so you can leave tips if you really enjoy the stream with me. But keep an eye out on the O.school calendar and sign up with them, so that you can get notifications whenever I am teaching. 

Dawn Serra: And last but not least, be sure to head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast If you want to support the show. I am up to my eyeballs in summiting. I have some amazing workshops. I’m developing some huge things in development for 2018. Kate McCombs is going to be at my house on Tuesday because we are live streaming for O.school together, all about keeping things hot in long distance relationships. 

I have so much going on. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to hear from you. I want your questions for the show. So you can go to dawnserra.com and fill in the contact form. One of you actually wrote to me recently and said you had no idea that I also did one-on-one coaching, which is a total shame. If you go to dawnserra.com, you can actually learn more about my workshops and my one-on-one coaching. I do lightning sessions that are just 20 minutes, if you just need a little bit of support around some big feelings you’re having or one particular problem. If you and a partner want couples coaching, I work with couples. Oh, my gosh. We have so much fun. We work through amazing things together. So you can check out all the details about my coaching practice at dawnserra.com. 

Dawn Serra: I know that was a lot that I just threw at you. But, holy crap! I am so freaking busy. I want to make sure you know about all the places that are free, where you can come hang out with me and also the things that are super affordable that you can grab, too. Because hey, nothing says Happy Holidays like a porn workshop. Ba-dum-dum. 

Okay. Let me tell you about Ken and Sunny, and then we’ll dive into the interview. Superheroes of sex ed, married couple Ken Melvoin-Berg and Sunny Megatron are partners in every sense of the word. In addition to co-producing Showtime’s “Sex with Sunny Megatron,” they initially gained recognition writing and teaching about everyone’s favorite subject – sex. In their sellout workshops, their unique brand of edutainment, plus combined 25 plus years of sexuality teaching experience puts students at ease. Each session seamlessly combines their humorous lecturing style, interactive exercises and the latest sexuality research. 

Sunny hosts their Showtime original television series, “Sex with Sunny Megatron,” taking viewers on a journey into the world of adult play, as everyday people expose their deepest and most intimate fantasies. Always honest, funny and sex positive, the show provides an interesting fresh twist on sexual exploration. Their latest endeavor is their podcast, “American Sex,” which we talked about and that features a super eclectic mix of guests from all walks of life. We are going to jump in and laugh and laugh and laugh. I can’t wait to hear from you. So reach out. Send me your questions. Sign up for the things. Hopefully, I’ll see you at the summit and on O.school. Here are Sunny and Ken. 

Dawn Serra: Welcome to Sex Gets Real, Sunny and Ken. Hello!

Sunny Megatron: Hello, Dawn.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Hi.

Sunny Megatron: Hi.

Dawn Serra: I am so delighted to talk to both of you today because I feel like every time I talk with both of you, all I do is just laugh the entire time. 

Sunny Megatron: Good. Our evil plan is working.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Let’s make people laugh. Well, we talk about sex. So you have an exciting new project going on. You’ve got a brand new podcast that you’re putting out into the world.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. “American Sex Podcast.”

Dawn Serra: How has that been? 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: It’s been amazing. We have had just a great time. This is a project that we’ve been putting off for three years– 

Sunny Megatron: At least three years.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: And we kept saying we’re going to have a podcast. We’re going to have a podcast because I did one– My life is incredibly varied and that I do stuff about true crime in the paranormal and sex-related stuff. I’ve had true crime in the paranormal-related podcasts in the past, but I have yet– This is my first one that I have done ever with anything with sex and sexuality. Of course, me and Sunny do everything together. And this is just an amazing idea. We looked around and we found this incredible name that nobody was using. It’s “American Sex Podcast.” 

Sunny Megatron: Right. I don’t know. For us, the name, I guess, solidified everything. It taps into the zeitgeist of what makes sexuality in America today from people who are kind of memes and that everybody knows, to people who are fighting legislation, to everyday people like you and me and a little bit of everybody.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Yeah. Also, I wanted to give a shout out to our good friend, Jim Marcus, for giving us the idea of “American Sex Podcast.”

Dawn Serra: Awesome. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: He’s the one who helped us come up with the name. I just wanted to give him a shout.

Dawn Serra: Who have been some of the guests that you’ve had on considering that this is a brand new show and you’ve had some rad, fucking conversations?

Ken Melvoin-Berg: We have had some just amazing people. I’m not going to go in order here because I want people to organically go wherever they want, but one of the– I think the feather in our cap was Dr. Joycelyn Elders, who was a former Surgeon General of the United States under the Clinton administration.

Sunny Megatron: And then, from that to the “Grapefruit blowjob” lady to someone who– 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Auntie Angel.

Sunny Megatron: Auntie Angel, to somebody who fantasizes about their own death in their own BDSM sexual fantasies. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: And he likes robots as well.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. And he’s into robots. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: He’s into robot sexuality as well as death fetish. Mark Schreiber, who’s an amazing journalist. He was the first person to get married to his husband at the same county where Kim Davis was trying to create all of the problems with gay marriage. They were the first one says that he did this as a journalist and as somebody who was getting married. So it was just an amazing conversation. 

Sunny Megatron: Right. And then, we go to like the guy who sang the classic, “What What (In the Butt).”

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Who was actually involved in our marriage. I hired Samwell to come in and sing “What What (In the Butt)” acapella style, unbeknownst to Sunny, as I proposed to her. 

Dawn Serra: That’s fucking awesome. 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: We interviewed Samwell–

Sunny Megatron: We have serious guests. We have cheeky guests. It’s funny because a lot of our serious guests we talked to, and then we talk about cheeky, funny things. And then, a lot of our funny guests we talked to and we get into some really serious subjects. So it’s all over the place in a really good way.

Dawn Serra: What was it like to talk to the “grapefruit lady?” Because I’m sure everyone listening has seen the video and/or heard of the video. I will of course link to the video.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: You know what’s interesting about this? We’ve known Auntie Angel for years. She’s actually taught… When we were teaching blowjob classes, we had her as a guest star in our class here in Chicago because she lives in Chicago. We’ve just known her for ages. When we saw her on Worldstarhiphop, I just was amazed at the noise that she made. I actually found it erotic. It was like slurppprooohawww. “Sunny. Sunny. You got to look. Listen to this. Listen to this. This is so hot.” Coincidentally, we were fans of hers first, and then we ended up meeting her at Exotica, I believe.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. We met her somewhere because we live in the same town. And then, we just kept being at the same events and running into each other all the time. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: She’s a really really good friend and a nice lady. It’s interesting that we had never thought about– I’m like, “Hey, Sunny. What do you think about having Auntie Angel on because people really like her?” Our ratings blew up all over the place when that happened. It was awesome.

Dawn Serra: So begs the question, have you tried the grapefruit stuff?

Sunny Megatron: We haven’t actually. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: We have not.

Sunny Megatron: Okay. So here’s the story. I bought a grapefruit once. It was sat on the counter. I think it just went bad because none of us really like grapefruit. And I’m afraid of them. It seems so messy and so sticky. I don’t want to get the bad messy and we have toys. We use toys. We use strokers. Instead of a grapefruit, there’s a fleshlight one or you can use the tenga egg or whatever. To me, that just makes more sense.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I kind of want you to do the grapefruit.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I want the noises along with it.

Sunny Megatron: Oh, God. Okay. Slurrpporwowowooow.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Would you wear an Auntie Angel mask?

Sunny Megatron: Oh. Now, we’re talking. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: How about a unicorn mask?

Sunny Megatron: Maybe. Maybe. I can be the grapefruit unicorn. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Yeah. That would be awesome. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. It’s funny because I asked Alex once. I was like, “Should we just try it to say we did? Like in the spirit of try the things,” and he was quiet for a minute and he goes, “I can’t think of how much I don’t want grapefruit juice in my urethra.”

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Okay. For real, this is just as a receiver perspective, the one thing, and this is honest to God why I have not pushed Sunny to do this is that I shave my cock and balls and I’m an older man that has anal fissures. The last thing that I want is… And I wasn’t worried… I didn’t even think about the urethra. What I thought is anal fissures–

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. Tripping down your butt hole, collecting there. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: You know what? I love Auntie Angel, but I hate grapefruit. Maybe if it was a huge orange, we could… That you might want to do.

Sunny Megatron: A huge orange? Okay. And I mean, technically, you’re supposed to do it with a condom on, so it doesn’t get in the urethra.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: That doesn’t help my ass.

Sunny Megatron: That doesn’t help your ass.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: We definitely need to invent a little something. Maybe we could get a juicer. Stick that up my butt.

Sunny Megatron: I have a juicer butt plug. I have a juicer butt plug, Ken.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: No. No. No. The ones with a bin, so you could catch the liquid.

Sunny Megatron: Oh. Okay. Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Not that kind of a juicer.

Dawn Serra: The guy that likes to fantasize about his own death and that also is into robot sex.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Dick Wound. He was just the most amazing surprise guests we’ve ever had. 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Now, he’s becoming a good friend online. We haven’t met him in real life yet, but he’s just there for us all the time. He’s helpful with advice. He’s amazing, funny guy with a legitimate fetish.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. He co-hosts the “Off the Cuffs” kink podcast, too.

Dawn Serra: Okay.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. It was really interesting because I, as a dominant woman, kind of dig the– And when he explained it, I was like, “Oh. This makes sense.” The evil villain. Think of the old Batman like the 1960s Batman.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Adam West.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. Adam West. I’m Catwoman and I’m going to capture you now and I’m going to seduce you, but I’m also going to blow this powder in your face that when you have an orgasm, your heart explodes and it kills you. But it’s so hot because I’m seducing you. It’s like, “What do you do?” It’s those types of scenarios. I’ve fantasized about those and played with other people like submissive males, so that made sense to me. I was like, “Oh. I get it.” But then, he actually had health issues that were life threatening and those fantasies took on a whole new spin when they really meant something in his life and that his heart really could explode. It was such a fascinating conversation.

Dawn Serra: You know, it’s funny because as soon as you said, “We had a guest that fantasizes about his own death,” my initial reaction was like, “Huh! That’s a really different.” But then, as you’re talking, I realized, I mean, if you have vampire fantasies, inherently, that’s a death fantasy. 

Sunny Megatron: Right.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: It is. I think people overlook that a lot. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I mean, so much with any other monster fantasy that you might have. I mean, inherent in those fantasies is your own death and romanticizing and sexualizing that. So I guess, it’s not really that rare. It’s just however it gets presented that might seem unusual.

Sunny Megatron: Right. And I find a lot of submissive men will have fantasies that center around them being all consumed by a woman. Sometimes that’s financially. Sometimes that’s completely taking mental control and sometimes that’s to the point of, “I can kill you.” It sounds weird, but when you actually play the fantasy, it makes a lot of sense.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I’ve definitely encountered that around just like the smothering. As a fat woman, there’s definitely partners I’ve had who’ve been just like, “Sit on my face and smother me.” Like I want there to be nothing in the universe except for you being on my face or you being on me or whatever it is. I could say that absolutely going just that one next level. It reminds me, did you see American Gods?

Ken Melvoin-Berg: No. I read it, but I haven’t watched the TV series.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I read it years ago, and then I just finished watching the series. One of the goddesses in the show is a sex goddess. And so she has sex with people and they die as the ultimate sacrifice during sex. The way they depicted on the show was hot. I can get behind that.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s fake. It’s not real. I mean, when it comes to fantasies, the cool thing is you can fantasize about anything because it’s a fantasy. It doesn’t mean you’re really going to kill someone. It doesn’t– 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Okay. But I have something to interject here. I would way rather die from fucking than from cancer.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Okay. I don’t care what it is. Even if it’s murder me by sex. That is much preferable than dying of cancer. 

Sunny Megatron: True.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Fuck cancer.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Seriously. Well, fuck yeah. We say all the things here, you know. One of the things that everybody just loves learning from you and your workshops and following along with your adventures and, of course, your Showtime show is just how immersed you are in kink and the ways that you build it into your lives with humor and play. Can I know, you’ve been working through some changes in health recently and I’m wondering, we talk all the time on the show about how we’re all temporarily able-bodied – if we’re able bodied at all – and so many listeners write in because they are grieving that their bodies have changed after menopause or after kids or because of surgeries and how we can stay in touch with ourselves and our loved ones when our bodies feel new or different. I know because you’re going into this space and grappling with health and wellness. I’m wondering, how has that been for you around the ways that you and Sunny interact through your kink and through sex? What’s that been like?

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Well, you know what, to be honest, it’s been emotionally rough because being a cis hetero guy, there is so much attachment to primacy of work in being a physically fit individual. A lot of times, I think that a lot of my privileges are awesome, but the downside of it is that, I think people expect me to move couches because I’m a big guy. Now, I have a heart condition and I can’t do that. So what it really means for my kink, I’m going to have to limit how much we do abduction scenes. I could do interrogation all day long, but I think I’m really going to have to limit the super physical stuff. I’ve got a couple of different heart issues going on. It’s been a little depressing because I can’t do as much physical things as I want to. I can’t even work out right now. The first question I asked when I found out about my heart condition was, “Can I have sex?” “Absolutely.” But I don’t think they know what kind of sex I have–

Sunny Megatron: I think your definition of that word is different than my definition of that word. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I hope that you know what that word means. But I know, coming from a medical background, I have a good understanding of what they meant by the physicality in the limitations there of. So basically, it’s going to be no super duper grabbing somebody, putting them on the ground and hog tying them kind of thing. I’m going to have to limit that kind of physical ability, but fucking and normal bondage scenes– I do a lot of psychological stuff in interrogation scenes and all that’s going to be normal for the most part. In fact, it’s going to add to it because I’m going to let all my submissive know I have a heart condition and probably fake a heart attack in front of them. I think that would be kind of fun. As long as I have consent.

Sunny Megatron: Oh, my God.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I’m not above that. I also have a seizure disorder and I faked seizures in front of my submissives before. 

Sunny Megatron: While they were tied up and freaking out.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: It’s one of my favorite things to do. I’m that much of a sadist.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. That’s a serious mind fuck, Ken.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I know.

Sunny Megatron: And we all laughed cause it’s funny. I think we’ve taken advantage of the lazy, sloppy handjob. Like, “You just lay there I’ll get a whole bunch of coconut oil. That doesn’t feel bad going into your ass. You don’t have to do anything.” 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Hell, yeah.

Sunny Megatron: It’s like I don’t have a problem with that. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Sunny has a sore mouth at all, like I’m, “Give me a hand–” Actually, I love handjobs probably more than anything else. It’s the combination of hand and mouth, but mostly it’s hand. 

Sunny Megatron: Right. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: If you just give me a nice, slippery handjob I’m the happiest guy in the universe.

Sunny Megatron: Right.

Dawn Serra: Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: The handjob is way overlooked, by the way.

Sunny Megatron: It is. I think, actually, for both of us, we much more prefer oral and manual sex to intercourse sex. Not that intercourse is bad, but I think you can get more precision with manual and oral than you can–

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I would rather get you off, and then do fucking later–

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. It’s a good ending.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: It is. 

Sunny Megatron: The fucking part is a good dessert. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Yeah. Even as somebody who’s as, you know, does so much involved in sexuality as Sunny and I do, a lot of times it’s like, we make sure that– You know what, this is the rule about sex. It’s not the size of the ship or the motion of the ocean, it’s making sure all the passengers get off. I think that’s the most important thing is orgasms happen, and then we can do whatever afterwards. But everybody has to have an orgasm. I mean, not every time, of course. We prefer that way.

Sunny Megatron: Everyone has to get to the point of satisfaction, whatever that means for them.

Dawn Serra: Right. Because sometimes the satisfaction is in the tease and the edging and not finishing. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Yeah. Totally.

Dawn Serra: I totally agree with you about manual sex. That, for me, is at the very top of the list of just things that always are like, “Okay. This is good. This is fun. I like this.” 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. 

Dawn Serra: And it’s just such a shame that, culturally, we’re taught that it’s substitute when you can’t get the real thing. 

Sunny Megatron: To me, that is the real thing. That’s the main thing for me. It’s like, “Put your mouth or your hands on me.” Cool. Oh. He’s touching me right now. I didn’t mean it on my elbow. Okay.

Dawn Serra: There’s probably someone out there listening who’s like, “I wish someone would lick my elbow.”

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I touched your penis. 

Sunny Megatron: You did. I’m a little dry right now, so I could cut you with my elbows right now.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Oh, yeah. Do it, baby. Do it. Cut me like you mean it.

Sunny Megatron: Little knife play with my elbows.

Dawn Serra: That’s right. So I’m always getting emails from people who are kink curious and/or have secretly started dabbling in kink and their partner either isn’t kinky or they just haven’t found the courage to actually have the conversation because they’re terrified of the rejection. I’m wondering for the two of you, as people who have taught kink 101 and just been around the world talking about kink, for people who are in that situation of, “I think this is a place I want to experiment, but I’m terrified of bringing it up because I think my partner might totally judge me or shame me,” what’s a good jumping off point for them?

Sunny Megatron: I love that we live in the modern day and age of the internet and YouTube videos and articles that are about sex in every magazine and podcasts. So for a lot of people, if they don’t know like, “I don’t want to seem like I came up with this idea myself,” be like, “You know, I was browsing podcasts and I happen to stumble upon Dawn Serra’s podcast–” or American Sex or the eight gazillion other podcasts. Or, “I was looking up cat videos on YouTube and suddenly, I fell in–”

Ken Melvoin-Berg: “I fell into a pussy hole.”

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. Exactly. You know, search terms a little weird. And, “You know, it gave me some ideas. What would you think about XYZ?” So those are really good starting off points. Blame it on somebody else. “This put the seed in my head and started to grow the idea. What do you think?” Or, “Let’s watch ‘Sex with Sunny Megatron’ on Showtime together.” It’s amazing how many people have told us that they’re just flipping through the TV. They don’t talk with their partner about sex. They’ve always wanted to try something kinky. And then they stumbled upon the show, watched it together in silence, like, “Hmmm.” Then, after the show, turn to each other, “So what did you think about that segment?” For the first time in 12 years, they actually had an open conversation about their fantasies and desires and about sex. Sometimes it’s just that little thing that will spark the conversation.

Dawn Serra: You know, when my dad found out that I was having the two of you on my summit last year, he shocked me by saying, “Sunny Megatron? I love that Sunny Megatron. I love her show.” “Wow. Dad, that’s awesome.” He was just so excited that I was talking to you because he loves your show and he was just having this total moment of glee that I was having a conversation with the two of you. I mean, I had no idea my dad would watch something kinky. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: You know what? Our demographic tends to be a little bit older since we started, since we really came on the public scene. I’ve been a sex educator now for over 21 years and more and more and more, I’m finding that it is older people that are interested in the classes that we offer and the things that we do. So people that are around our age. Of course, there is younger people as well. 

Sunny Megatron: Our age is upper 40. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Oh. I’m sorry. Upper 40. I’m almost 50. But as we continue on, we’ve had so many older people thank us for making sexuality something that they can identify with again after having been out of it for a little while. I think that’s one of the biggest things that we’ve done is helping people who really need the help and giving them that first step. It’s not like we’ve done anything extra special other than we’ve opened the door and they take the steps. 

Sunny Megatron: Right. We give them permission to talk about it out loud. That’s really, oftentimes, all people need to start to get the ball rolling. Then once they get the ball rolling, they’re really good at identifying. Like, “Okay. This is stuff I know that I know. And this is stuff I know I need help with.” And, “Hey. Look. There’s a class. Let’s go.” You know? 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. 

Sunny Megatron: And boom life is changed. 

Dawn Serra: Do you think that the folks who come to your workshops are a little bit older because they see educators that aren’t college aged, and so it feels safe? Do you think it’s because they feel more comfortable doing in person versus just growing up in online spaces and knowing you can find anything online or a combination of things? What do you think draws people in who I think a lot of people would assume aren’t interested in classes?

Ken Melvoin-Berg: You know, because I’ve been doing this for so long, the one thing that I’ve noticed, I think, it’s a combination of both of those things that you’ve mentioned. It’s unfamiliarity with new technology combined with wanting that personal connection with somebody that is in their peer group or at least close to it. Because we’re not college-aged kids that are just getting into this for the first time. I don’t look at our age as years. I look at it as level. So right now, I’m level 49. Sunny, what are you? Level 47?

Sunny Megatron: 46 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: 46. Sorry. Sweetheart.

Sunny Megatron: I don’t know how old I am. Actually, I don’t remember. I got menopause brain right now. Wait. 1971. What year is it? 2017. I’m 46. Yeah. Okay.

Dawn Serra: Yay! Math!

Ken Melvoin-Berg: But I think just having in its… I think it’s that level of experience that we have. Because you can be the most amazing sex educator in the world. And if you’re 27 years old, if there’s over 30 years old, you’re going to get some side eye. Like how much can a 27-year old really know? No matter how much education they’ve had, no matter how much life experience they’ve had, I mean, I’ve been teaching classes for almost that long. So I think there’s something to be said for the experience that we have. 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. It’s interesting because even though we have a large portion of our demographic that is 40 plus – even 50 plus – we still have a good number of people that are in that millennial range that are 24 to 35, as well. I think part of it is and I don’t know if… We’re sort of chameleons. Okay. I not grew up, but became an adult in corporate America. For almost two decades, I was a corporate drone. It was horrible. But I can very much mail my way into corporate businessy stuff. But then, I also have tattoos. I’m unconventional. And I think when it comes to age, we transcend different groups and demographics really easily. And I don’t know why.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I think the tattoos help because I think… You’ve actually hit on this a number of times without realizing it. People that are millennials look at us as, “This is my kinky mom and dad. My adoptive mom and dad.” 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I think that they can relate to us more because we listen to the music they do. We update everything that we’re doing all the time to approach millennials, as well as older folks. I mean, when I grew up, my ultimate goal is to be a combination of Santa Claus and Joan Price. If I could be those two people at once, that would be amazing. Because Joan is just incredible. But, as I age, I want to get into the area of sexuality and aging, but she’s the empress of that. I want to strive to be like her. I don’t want to be her. If that makes sense.

Sunny Megatron: Right.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Sunny, you’ve mentioned a couple of times, you keep saying, “Oh, no. Menopause brain.”

Sunny Megatron: I know. It’s happening. It’s kind of taking me off guard a little bit. Because a lot of our audience, for some part, was younger. I don’t get a lot of questions about menopause. I’m like, You know menopause? Needs to really look into that a little more soon.” And I kept putting it off. Now, I’m like, “Oh. Shit. I keep forgetting to look into it because menopause brain.” There’s so much misinformation out there about menopause. It’s like this hush hush, dirty little secret that nobody’s really talking about. Even as an educator, I’m like, “I think I know what to expect, but I’m not really sure.” Because I’m getting so much conflicting information. So it’s been interesting. I can tell– I haven’t gone and had my hormone levels checked or anything, but I know stuff is happening. I can just tell. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I concur. 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. My libido is meh.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: No. It’s not that. It’s more the temperature thing. 

Sunny Megatron: Oh. Yeah. Hot flashes. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: You have the remove control with your hot flashes, so you could go, “Turn it up 20 degrees. Turn it down 20 degrees, Turn it up 20 degrees. Turn it down 20 degrees.”

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. And my periods are different. Shits happen. All the chin hairs. Like, “What the hell?”

Ken Melvoin-Berg: My beard is still way cooler than yours, Sunny.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. Not for long, Ken. Not for long. Because my beard’s starting to turn gray too now.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I throw down a glove, ma’am. I challenge you to a beard off. I will win this one contest. 

Sunny Megatron: Alright.

Dawn Serra: Yes. How interesting that you’re noticing just like libido changes and going on this… I mean, just like Ken is, but in a different way. It’s like, “Hey. I’m in a new body that’s having these experiences and I got to figure this out.”

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. And it’s weird because with the libido thing and I think back to Emily Nagoski’s work about desire. Sometimes you just got to jump into it even if you’re not feeling it. Then, once you start to get aroused, then you’re like, “Oh. There’s my desire. Okay. Cool.” But even when I have orgasms, even by myself, they’re just not as powerful. Do you ever have those orgasms where you’re like working up and you’re like, “Yeah! Yeah! You’re coming? Yeah! Yeah! Yeah,” then it’s a dud? Most of my orgasms are becoming that and I’m like, “Oh. This is awful.” It’s starting to become more trouble than it’s worth to just go through everything to get off. I’m like, “That’s it?” So I have to reframe how I’m looking at things because everything’s different and it’s going to continue changing. I don’t know where it’s going. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I do know that are 69s or more like a 68 with sore backs and sore knees.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Dawn Serra: Prop yourself up however you got to.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: That’s why those body pillows are a savior.

Sunny Megatron: And then, little things like I said even when you’re masturbating, it’s easy to get off with yourself. It’s like, “Alright. I’m just going to rub one out real quick.” I got the arthritis hands. So then, I’m like, “Okay. Not only is my orgasm not as good, it takes longer to achieve. My hand is killing me now.” It’s just, yeah. It’s very new.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Well, I hope that wherever you end up, ends up being a delightful place.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. It will. I just don’t know where it’ll be, yet.

Dawn Serra: Right. Or, when? It’s kind of a moving target.

Sunny Megatron: Exactly.

Dawn Serra: So because we were talking about facial hair and beard offs, I was wondering if you wanted to help me answer a question about pubic hair.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Absolutely.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. 

Dawn Serra: How’s that for a transition?

Sunny Megatron: It’s actually a good one. It’s also a little hairy. But you know.

Dawn Serra: You know. 

Sunny Megatron: That was bad. That was so bad. Oh! Can I tell you my favorite joke? 

Dawn Serra: Yes. 

Sunny Megatron: Okay. So we’re at the hospital– Oh. Now you know it’s a joke because I was going to make it a story. But, yeah. Me and Ken were at the hospital the other day in the emergency room and we were listening to the person in the curtain next to us. We heard that this guy came in with six little toy horses shoved up his rectum. We heard the doctor say, “His condition was stable.”

Dawn Serra: To everybody listening, do not put plastic horses up your ass.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. Without a base, without a trace. Don’t do it. But it makes for good joke, unless you want to be the butt of a joke. 

Dawn Serra: Oh.

Sunny Megatron: Alright. So pubic hair. So pubic hair.

Dawn Serra: Okay. I’ll read the email. It’s about four paragraphs, and then we’ll dive in. So Pro Pubes wrote in and says, “Dear Dawn, thanks for your show. I’m a single, almost 30-year old, self-identified feminist, straight cis woman. I’ve been in three relationships. Two of which were quite long and I’m just beginning to explore casual sex and shorter term relationships. My question is about pubic hair. I never felt self-conscious about my pubic hair until I was 26-years old, exiting a six year relationship. I like my pubic hair. I like other people’s and until then, no one had ever commented on it. 

When I began to date again, men began to say things, in explicit or veiled ways. Not every person, but often enough to make this very vocal feminist, very self-conscious about something I personally don’t want to change. Of course, I know the answer to this question is, “It’s my body. Who cares? I must be dating the wrong people.” But I’m surrounded by a lot of women and people who think, “Everyone should trim,” “I prefer it shaped and waxed,” “It feels more hygienic.” I’m totally horrified by the fact that it feels like a fad sold to us to make money and ultimately make me feel infantilized and that I secretly – or not so secretly – often succumb to the pressure, at least emotionally. 

Dawn Serra: So my question is, can you talk to me about the politics of shaving and waxing and how I can approach this in my mind when I’m being rejected for this? It’s something that I’m still so uncomfortable and afraid of. Thank you.”

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Well, I have an interesting side note on this more than anything else. In the recent past ten years, there has been a huge trend of shaving one’s genital hairs. It’s actually become normalized from one thing that’s overlooked. And that is the free porn tube sites. Now, this is not me throwing porn under the bus, but when you go to xhamster.com or pornhub.com, which is where a majority of people under the age of 30 go to to get their porn because it’s free. What they’re not realizing is all of the harm that it’s causing themselves in the people that make the videos. 

Now, there’s a great podcast on audible.com called “The Butterfly Effect,” about all of the men going to porn tube sites and what they have done. One of the examples of this is that for the first time ever in history, cis men that are watching these tube sites that are ages 18 to 26 are having a rate of ED or erectile dysfunction of 1,000%, higher than any time in past, only with a living partner. They have no problem with arousal while they’re watching porn, but it’s when they’re interacting with another person because it’s so available and it’s so over the top. They do have– 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: And this is the thing, they do have genital hair on there, but it’s a niche fetish. That’s the thing about it is that the broader section of society of millennials is more accustomed to seeing no hair as opposed to a normal amount of hair, which is something that, if you’re in your late 30s, early 40s, 50s, on up, that’s what we grew up with. The people under 30 have not become accustomed to that. 

Now, to answer her question, I think that it’s important and probably a good thing to be overly honest, in some ways and admit to having a full bush. The bush is making a comeback and there’s plenty of people that want it. But I don’t know if this is within that person’s comfort level, if you are on social media as far as dating sites – not Facebook, obviously – like OkCupid mention that you have a hairy pussy because there is some things on there that will attract the person that you want to get. I think that if you want to get somebody that likes you for who you are, tell them who you are. Be honest and open. When we teach a class that we do call “Networking for Kinky People,” this is the exact subject that we teach people how to make their own FetLife or OkCupid profiles, so that they can attract the person that they want. And having a current picture and talking about the issues that are most important to you, I think, are critical.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. I think it’s difficult because the person who asked the question had it in their answer. “I know that a lot of this is a fad and I should just tell those people to fuck off. And this is my bush. If you don’t like it, move on to the next person.” Intellectually, we can say that. But it’s hard. It’s hard to actually live through it. 

A couple of suggestions I have. One is anytime that I have had body issues, no matter what that is, like my body doesn’t feel “normal” or like everybody else’s, was to start seeking out bodies that looked more like mine. That might be watch a little bit more feminist porn, where people tend to have more body hair. Start putting yourself in places where you see people that look like you. Because like Ken said, the bushes is making a comeback. Yeah. That’s fad. But there are a lot of people that like pubic hair that are into pubic hair. 

Dawn Serra: Did someone say feminist porn? This is just a quick reminder that if you too are looking for yummy feminist porn, you can go to crashpadseries.com. They are generously sponsoring my summit. And I love what they do. All the bodies, all the hair, all the things, all the barriers. Check out CrashPadSeries. Also, if you’re curious about porn, be sure to check out my porn workshop that just dropped. There is a link in the show notes. Back to Sunny and Ken.

Sunny Megatron: And I have mixed feelings on the “Hey, I’ve got a full bush everybody.” Because then, if it were me, would I then start attracting partners that were fetishizing me just for my bush? So it’s a hard– There is no easy answer. I don’t know.

Dawn Serra: I think that if I got into a situation where I was getting ready to hook up with someone, that would definitely be a point where I just at least have some questions like, “What are your feelings about pubic hair?” 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. 

Dawn Serra: I certainly, at some point, would disclose probably before the clothes came off just because I like talking about those things with people. I know not everyone does. But I do think at least initiating the conversation of like, “What are your thoughts on pubic hair?” And if you get someone who’s like, “Eww! Gross,” then, you’re like, “Guess what? We’re not fucking.”

Sunny Megatron: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Because we all have our preferences and that’s fine. I have my preference for me and what I like to do with my body, but that has no bearing on what other people should do with their bodies, what my current or future partners body should look like. That’s their deal. That’s their decision. That’s not for me to say.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. And I don’t think any of us are immune from all of the different messages that we’re surrounded by. I mean, when I first met Alex, we both shaved completely and I made a decision along the way like, “I’m just gonna stop shaving my pussy and see what happens.” I kind of like the low maintenance approach, but I still have some guilt that comes up every once in a while of just like, “Maybe he’s just being too nice to say he prefers it because, you know, like some people.” I have to talk myself through that of, “But it’s me and it’s my body.” I can certainly have conversations – and I do – about that, just kind of our feelings about the pubic hair. But I still have to confront that in myself every once in a while of just, “But should I?” So I think it’s just an ongoing thing. We get to change our minds and try different things. I don’t think that we’re betraying ourselves if at some point we’re like, “Maybe I will try shaving.” 

Sunny Megatron: Right. 

Dawn Serra: We get to play with that. 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. I mean, I know in my life I’ve gone– There were times that I was like so anti-shaving. And then, there have been times where I’m like, “Oh, God! I can’t even think about not shaving.” So I’ve gone back and forth with just how I feel about my body, how I feel about my daily maintenance of myself and all those other things.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: From a guy’s perspective, though, one of the things that I would mention is that I think that I shave my shaft all the time because it makes my cock look bigger. That’s something for my self-esteem. Now, I might have a bush going on, but one of the things about penises – so, penis owners – is that hair grows on our balls, hair grows on our perineum, hair grows on our penis all the way up to about the first one quarter of the shaft. That, for me, I feel less friction when I don’t shave. I want to feel that friction a little bit. I want to make sure that I get more tactile sensation. When I have too much hair down there, not only does it make my penis look smaller, but it is something that creates a feeling that I don’t enjoy. So it’s not about cosmetics for me, as much as it is about being functional. 

Sunny Megatron: Interesting. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Although, you know I shave my balls as well just because I don’t like the way that it looks. 

Sunny Megatron: Right.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: That’s cosmetic. 

Sunny Megatron: But it’s your preference. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Totally. 

Sunny Megatron: If you had a partner that had a penis, you wouldn’t be like, “And you have to shave yours, too.”

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I would shave my penis whether or not I had a partner.

Sunny Megatron: Right. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Even if I wasn’t having sex just because I need it to be functional for masturbation. I need it to be the way that I like the way that it looks. I actually trim everything on my pubic mound, but I don’t shave it off because of shaving bumps. Because I get shaving bumps all the time. 

Sunny Megatron: Right. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: So it makes it a lot easier just to keep it trimmed really low. And I keep the setting for my pubic hair the same as the beard as I do for my pubes.

Sunny Megatron: Ooh. Nice.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Upper beard. 

Sunny Megatron: The carpet matches the drapes. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Yes. The carpet matches the drapes. If I really want to do that, I should shave it into the shape of a mustache. 

Sunny Megatron: You should.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Or, grow it out and start waxing it. But waxing it and putting in my underwear, that would just be weird. 

Sunny Megatron: You know what’s funny, I actually– Now, that the people are embracing pubic hair more and I’m like, “You know, I can do whatever I want,” I actually want to have pubic hair. And I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this, Ken–

Ken Melvoin-Berg: No.

Sunny Megatron: But I still shave it. You know why? Because I don’t like the way my pubic hair grows. I have really sparse hair. If I let my leg hair grow, I hardly have any hair. So it’s like every two centimeters is one gangly, little hair in a forest of bald. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: And it looks like the map of Kazakhstan. 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. I just don’t like the way my hair grows that I wish I did because I want to have a nice, nice furry bush. But it’s just… It’s like a guy with a comb over it. It just doesn’t– Makes me sad.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I’m glad you brought up porn, Ken, because the politics around all of this are informed by so many things. I actually attended this TED-x type event called “SEXx Interactive” in Philly a couple of years ago and one of the speakers was this PhD candidate at Widener, whose research was entirely about body hair. I heard her talk and it was fascinating. She had done all this research going all the way back to the late 1800s about the politics of shaving and how we used to not shave really anything other than our beards. Then, the shaving industry realized they’d had run out of market. They wanted to find a way to grow it. And so they decided, “We’ll start with women’s under arms.” They spent three years before they ever sold a single product for underarm shaving. They spent three years doing these very subtle ads in all the women’s magazines about, “The refined woman likes smoothness.” Then, they started working in these mentions about underarms. 

And then all of a sudden, they had all these women’s razors and women’s products. All of these women had been trained until like, “Oh, God. I’ve got to do something about this problem.” And then, they took it to legs. And then, it became a thing where we just culturally decided that to be feminine was to be hairless. It was driven by this profit-based model. Then, of course, now we’ve got porn that if that’s the only time we ever see genitals, of course, we’re going to think a certain thing is normal.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Exactly.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So we’re all swimming in it, but to pro pubes… I mean, I think, one, having conversations with potential partners about just the politics – their politics – around pubic hair, so you can know before you’re naked. And, two, we get rejected for all kinds of really stupid, benign things. Pubic hair can feel so personal, but it could be you get rejected because your boobs are different sizes or like… Who knows? They don’t like that you’ve got hair on your anus or because of the color of it. I think part of hookup culture and casual sex is also just finding a little resilience around like, “Oh. Well, if that’s a problem for you, then we’re not going to fuck. I’m moving on.” Right?

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: You know, one of the one of the things that comes to mind when you were talking just about pubic hair in general is the trends in the 1800s were completely opposite of how they are today. Sometimes a good opener for talking about body hair all together might be discussing something from history, and then relating it to what’s today. So back in the 1800s, when somebody had pubic lice, they would shave it off. They actually developed a wig for the pubic mound called a merkin. The merkin was specifically developed mostly for sex workers back at that age, but anybody that got pubic lice, so that they could maintain the illusion that they had pubic hair.

Sunny Megatron: Right. Because if you didn’t have pubic hair back in the Victorian era that meant something was wrong down there. 

Dawn Serra: Humans are funny.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. They are. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: We are.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Because you know what? I’ll bet if we wait another 15, 20 years, the attitudes about body mods and hair, it’s all going to be different again.

Sunny Megatron: Oh. Yeah. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Oh. Totally. It’ll be cyclical.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Okay. So do you want to help me field the question from Siren about fisting? 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Absolutely. 

Dawn Serra: Alright. So Siren wrote in that just says, “Hey, love. I found your podcast. I know you hear this all the time, but I love listening to you. I’ve always been super close-minded when it came to sex. And with all the information you share, I feel more comfortable with the idea of sex and the endless options that are out there. I want to try fisting. I watched some porn just to get an idea. It looks amazing. I know you can’t just jump into it and you need lots of lube. I’ve heard you talk about it on the show. But I guess my question is, how does it feel? How did your body feel after your first time? I have someone I trust who’s down for anything. I’ve known him for about ten years and we used to date. So I think I might be able to approach him to help me with this fisting adventure. I would love help. I’m bursting with ideas. Thank you for these wonderful podcasts. Love, Siren.”

Sunny Megatron: Yay. Okay. First of all, fisting is amazing. It really is. It is– Ah. God.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Sunny is a master of the hidden duck style of kung fu.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. And I would say for fisting, when I first started, when I first did fisting– I think, Ken, you were the first one who fisted me? And I have a little– 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Really? I didn’t know that.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. I think so.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: It’s hot.

Sunny Megatron: A lot of– Like physically and hairy and having menopause?

Ken Melvoin-Berg: No. It’s hot.

Sunny Megatron: Oh. Like fisting. I was like, “I’m actually a little cold.” 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: No. I meant you were sexy sweetheart. Not temperature. 

Sunny Megatron: It is hot. Now, I’ve run into a lot of men, especially that I’ve slept with in the past or been romantically entangled with that put a lot of shame onto fisting. Like, “Oh. It’s like throwing a hotdog down a hallway. You’re too loose. Nobody would want to be with you, if you could take a fist.” Oh. Yeah. There’s all this societal kind of shame. I remember the first time when you fisted me, I was surprised you were all the way. I was like, “What? Everything is up to… What? It’s up to your wrist.” And then, I was like, “Oh, my God. That’s so hot.” Then, I had a moment of like, “Oh, my God. What does that mean?” I had conflicting feelings. I’ve gotten over that over the years. Now, I’m like, “Yeah. Put both of them in there.” It’s like a clown car in my vagina.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Really? I can go both? 

Sunny Megatron: I don’t know if I physically able to, but I’d be willing to try. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Alright. 

Sunny Megatron: Let’s do it. Alright. So when it comes to fisting, relaxation is the key and going slow is super important. Ken was talking about that silent duck position. Like putting your fingers into a point going in first, whatever it is. Two fingers, three fingers. Maybe even having an orgasm first, so you’re really relaxed and really as turned on as you can be and all that erectile tissue is primed. Partially, to get your body relax, but also to get completely out of your head. Because the minute you’re in your head and you’re like, “Oh, my God. A whole fist is going in me.” And then, you start thinking about it, you clench up without realizing it. So even if that orgasm you have versus just completely go to La La Land, where you’re not thinking about anything, cool. 

Some people, depending on the size of you and the size of your partner’s hand, it may not be possible. I’m really into fisting now, so I go to fist other people. I’ve long fingers. I’ve pretty thin hands. But there are some people that just, as hard as I try, can’t get that last thumb in there. And don’t be disappointed if you can’t. One thing that Ken and I have done is – and this came from BDSM thing, but it ended up being really cool – we have a chain. Like a chain you would buy from Home Depot, just like a metal chain. It’s a long link a chain and you get really aroused and whatnot and start feeding the chain in, little by little by little by little by little by little. Before you know it, you have this huge, tangled, bulk of metal chain inside of you. Because you’re feeding it in so slowly, as you’re getting aroused, you don’t realize how much you’ve actually taken. By the way, when you pull it out slowly, it’s amazing. It’s like anal beads. Like the vaginal– 

Dawn Serra: Oh. Yeah. 

Sunny Megatron: Oh. It’s so amazing. But doing things like that where you slowly stretch yourself over… It might be half hour, 45 minutes. I’m talking a long time. That will help. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I agree. For me, the few times that I’ve gotten the majority of a fist in, it’s been post-orgasm. At least one. Sometimes two. Because then, my body’s just like blissed out. I’ve already had a couple of releases and there’s lots and lots of moisture going on. And then we’re able to actually like, “What? What? How much is in there?” You kind of want to reach down and be like, “That’s a wrist.”

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Dawn Serra: But, yeah. I definitely think the idea of fisting can be really hot, inevitably, because we’re talking about this. Every freaking time, I talk about this thing on this show. I always get at least one comment from somebody who’s like, “I love your show, but the second I hear fisting, I have to turn it off. Eww!” So to all of you… You’re not listening by now, but. 

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Dawn Serra: I think the idea of being fisted is really hot. Sometimes we get so tied to wanting to successfully do the fisting that it can feel like a really big disappointment if we can’t for whatever reason – because of the hand size or our body just wasn’t ready or we just need practice. And so, for me, part of the hotness is just in the talking about it, and then trying and however far we get until I’m on cloud nine from pleasure, that’s a win.

Sunny Megatron: Right. I think that doesn’t happen until you get out of the– As the receiver, you’re like, “How many fingers are in now?” If you’re in that mindset, you’re not going to be able– You have to get where you’re like English doesn’t exist anymore in your brain, you’re not thinking about how many fingers. And as the giver, get out of that too, like, “Hey. I’m up to three fingers now.” Shut up. Just let it happen. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Sunny, I love you like a muppet loves fisting. I just have to say that.

Sunny Megatron: Oh. Thank you.

Dawn Serra: And as givers of fisting, what’s your experience been like?

Ken Melvoin-Berg: As a giver… And I’m not going to speak for Sunny on this, but for myself. One of the things that… I mean, for me, it’s just a huge amount of eroticism. Everything involved with it. So that’s why I always try to keep my nails short. Have a good supply. When I bring my sex bag, I always have nitrile gloves in there, just in case somebody does want to get fisted. We’ve actually used a couple of very non-traditional toys to assist with fisting. One of my favorites is the horse speculum. 

Sunny Megatron: Oh, God. 

Dawn Serra: Ooh.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: So we use an equine speculum. The geek in me love this. This is one of– I mean, of course, I loved you before this, but Sunny, let me throw– I’m a D&D geek. I have lots of those weird dice and I had a D20 that I bounced–

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. He rolled it down my vaginal canal and bounced it off my cervix.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Right off her cervix.

Dawn Serra: Oh!

Sunny Megatron: Yeah.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Through the horse speculum. We’ve put glow lights in there, so that you can see everything. But it’s a great way to open up.

Sunny Megatron: You crit inside my vag, by the way.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: I did. I crit inside her vag. I totally did.

Dawn Serra: Oh, my God. So it started with fisting, but now we’re talking about equine speculum– dragons

Sunny Megatron: Yes.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Exactly.  

Sunny Megatron: And Dungeons and Dragons.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: And how they all fit together. But, sincerely, I think that it’s… One of my main kinks is giving people their first experiences and fisting is something that not everybody does. So it’s a good technique for me, personally, to get involved with for my own selfish reasons because I’d like giving people their first experiences or something that they haven’t done very much. Yeah.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. And what’s your experience with anal fisting?

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Anal fisting is something that I’ve done a handful of times. I enjoy it, but not as much as vaginal fisting.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. I want to say I’ve done it once or twice. Not very many times. It’s fun. But I like the vaginas. I’m into vaginas.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Well, for me, I said, I have butt problems. I’m worried I would turn into a Jewish grandmother at that point– 

Sunny Megatron: I can barely get a finger in you, much less. 

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Wanting to feed you, and then shove all four, five fingers up your butt. No. Because I could cause a tear. That could be something happening, and then I’m going to turn all motherly on you.

Sunny Megatron: And nobody wants their mother with their hand in their ass.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Nobody likes that.

Dawn Serra: One of my favorite moments ever with just my adult life… I was in at a play party and someone had made it clear at the beginning that their goal was to be fisted. If it happened, that would be amazing. If not, super okay. But who would be down with maybe trying to make this happen for the first time? And so, a very small handed individual who’s in the sex work industry volunteered. I was off in a corner having wonderful things done to me. But right in the middle of this very fun-filled play party, I just heard this loud, boisterous, “I just got fisted!!!” Everyone stopped what they were doing and clapped, and then went right back to whatever sexy activity they were in the middle of – a nap or after cared. To me, that was just one of the most delightful things I’ve ever been around because it was pure joy.

Sunny Megatron: That’s amazing. Yeah. You all gave a hand.

Dawn Serra: Exactly. We all give a hand to that first fisting experience.

Sunny Megatron: We used to have– I forget what it was a staples or something. But that was easy. That button we used to keep on next to our bed. It’s like you get the fist in there. That was easy. An easy button.

Dawn Serra: Yes. Oh. Please, people. Do these things. 

Sunny Megatron: Yes. 

Dawn Serra: Well, Siren, I hope that inspired you and just give you that extra little oomph to give fisting a try. Have fun. Use all the lube and try lots of different things. Try different positions, different contexts, different hands. You never know what’s going to be the thing that feels amazing and delicious and makes it work for you. So, thank you for helping me field those, to both of you.

Sunny Megatron: Of course.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Of course.

Dawn Serra: I was wondering if you would share with everyone how they can find your podcast and also stay in touch with you to find out about workshops and speaking gigs and all that good stuff. 

Sunny Megatron: Absolutely. So if you’re looking for the podcast, we are “American Sex.” We’re on pretty much almost every podcasting platform like iTunes, Stitcher. We’re now on iHeartRADIO, which I’m excited about. Just go ahead and look for that. You can go also sunnymegatron.com/category/podcast, if you can’t find it on your podcasting service. If you want to keep in touch with us and find out what kind of workshops we’ve got going on, you can visit sunnymegatron.com. That’s S-U-N-N-Y Megatron dot com. We have an events calendar on there and all our blog posts and all the fun stuff. If you want to follow us on social media, I am at @SunnyMegatron on almost pretty much anything you know – Facebook, Twitter, etc. Ken is @psychicken. P-S-Y-C-H-I-C-K-E-N. Which tell the story, Ken, cause your laughing.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Okay. Just real quick. I’ve been @psychicken for years and it originally was because I used to be a professional psychic and my name is Ken. I took the domain name and the email name as “Psychic Ken” and not realizing that it’s spelled Psychicken. Since nobody can see… They’re like, “I knew you were a psychic, but I thought you were just psychicken. So we just left it at that.

Sunny Megatron: You’re a psychological chicken. That’s what you are. I don’t know.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Which was amazing because I was getting such good SEO. I let my domain name slip in a Korean company that does some food called Psy Chicken took my domain. But they kept putting stuff up for me and Sunny would get Google notices about the Psy Chicken company @ tagging me as a famous psychic, sex expert in the United States. 

Dawn Serra: Oh.

Sunny Megatron: Yeah. Bizarre. Bizarre.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Which I’m okay with. They can steal my SEO. If they steal my domain, at least they’re giving me props.

Sunny Megatron: Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah. That’s all the places, I think. Yeah. That’s that covers it.

Dawn Serra: Okay. Well, I will have all those links in the show notes so folks can go subscribe to your show and hear all the things and stay in touch with you and your workshops. I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and getting out with me. This was delightful.

Sunny Megatron: Yes. Thank you for having us.

Ken Melvoin-Berg: Thank you so much for having us, Dawn.

Dawn Serra: You’re so welcome. To everybody who listened, if you have any comments or questions, please head to dawnserra.com and fill out the contact form. Also, if you love the show, you know I also love your support. You can head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. Until next time. I’m Dawn Serra. Talk to you soon.