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On to this week’s show with Ruby Bouie Johnson, the Black Sex Geek herself.

This is an episode entirely about polyamory. It’s raw and funny, and so so real. This is a no-holds-barred chat about the good, the super bad, and the beautiful parts of poly communities.

Ruby talks about how polyamory healed her in deeply personal and liberating ways, but only after expressing some mindblowing thoughts about the sexism, ageism, racism, and oppressive BS that’s so common in poly communities around the country.

Plus, she shares her thoughts on the folks who are constantly on the hunt for that perfect unicorn and why it’s so exhausting as a poly educator to have to field these (typically offensive) requests.

It’s juicy. It’s ugly. It’s hysterical. And it will give anyone in or considering a polyamorous dynamic a lot to think about.

My biggest take away? That inclusion is NOT a policy or a mission statement. It is a deliverable and it is VISIBLE. You can say you’re inclusive all you want but unless you see that reflected in the people who actually participate and attend – unless you see POC and fat bodies and a variety of abilities and disabilities, it’s all lip service.

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook. It’s true. Oh! And Dawn is on Instagram.

In this episode, Ruby and I talk about:

• Planning a big conference like PolyDallas Millennium, which happens in July of each year. It’s a family friendly polyamory conference that Ruby created including a session called “Everything You Can Do Not To Fuck Your Kids Up.”
• The show House of Cards and why Ruby adores the poly dynamic that the characters have. We also touch on Sense8 and the poly dynamics there, too.
• We geek out about loving and adoring Meg-John Barker and relationship anarchy.
• Why Ruby strongly believes polyamory is not about polyfuckery or simply having sex with as many folks as you want. Polyamory is not all about sex. But it is about growing and expanding experiences and connections.
• The danger of using the word ‘healthy’ when talking about relationships. We dive into why it’s less about health and more about ethically exploring without pressuring someone. Also, it’s BS that you need to be physically/mentally healthy – it’s ableist and ridiculous.
• What really fucks with Ruby in polyamory communities like prioritizing and valuing couples over solo poly folks and also people who believe they are smarter or more evolved than they really are simply because they’re polyamorous. Poly communities also tend to be very homogenous – it’s a lot of white folks.
• Why it’s misogynistic for men to come into polyamory expecting hot, single, bi women to want to join their marriage without leaving room for any other kind of relationship to blossom. Ruby gets so many messages from men trying to place an order for this mystical unicorn and it’s gross.
• Racism, ageism, and oppression inside of polyamorous communities and why being poly does not make you better or ore smarter or more evolved when you’re still inside of all these systems of oppression.
• Inclusivity is action, it is deliberate, and it is visible. It is not a policy or a mission and nothing else.
• Why equality isn’t necessarily the goal in polyamory – score keeping versus needs and negotiating.
• How polyamory healed Ruby in deep, powerful ways. What her marriage is like and why she created PolyDallas Millennium. It’s a beautiful story.

Resources discussed in this episode

The New York Times piece on non-monogamy that Ruby wrote about is here.

Ruby’s response to the NYT piece, ‘What the New York Times Neglected to See.’

About Ruby Bouie Johnson

Ruby Bouie Johnson is a clinical social worker and sex therapist located in Plano, Texas. Ruby’s primary client base are folks who are kinky, in consensual nonmonogamous relationships, queer, lesbian, bisexual, and gay, and sexual challenges. She works with individuals, couples, triads, quads, and polycules with power dynamics within their relationships. Ruby has published in various journals and in the African American Encyclopedia on Criminology. Ruby has presented at Kinky Kollege, Consent Summit, Association of Black Sexologist and Clinicians, and will present at the upcoming American Association of Sexologists, Educators, Counselors, and Therapists Conference. Ruby Johnson is a contributor for HuffPo and Black and Poly Magazine. Ruby Johnson is on faculty for the Kink Knowledgeable Program. Mrs. Johnson serves on the board for the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom.

You can stay in touch with Ruby at blacksexgeek.net and on Facebook and Twitter @blacksexgeek.

Ruby is also the CEO, Founder, and organizer for PolyDallas Millennium LLC. The 3rd Annual Symposium is July 14-16 in Dallas Texas. You can learn more and register at www.polydallasmillennium.com and also check out the conference’s Facebook and Twitter @polydallas2015

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!

Hello, you. Here we are with a new episode of Sex Gets Real. This chat that I’m about to share with you with Ruby Bouie Johnson is hysterical and so real. It is full of so many real issues and real feelings; and just ridiculous juiciness around polyamory and Ruby’s experience with it as an expert. I think you’re going to find a lot of really interesting things in this episode, and especially at the end when she starts talking about how polyamory has actually helped her heal in so many ways. But before we get to that, I wanted to let you know that at the end of my Explore More Summit, which happened a couple of months ago, I started hosting group calls with some of the summit participants. 

Dawn Serra: We were practicing empathy and emotional intelligence. We were learning how to communicate around really tough issues in relationship and practicing saying tough things. We were digging into our beliefs around sex and our bodies. And we had this incredible group experience over the course of seven weeks. I loved it so much that I’ve decided to continue having group calls. 

So if you go to dawnserra.com/ep166/ or you just look at the show notes for this episode, there is a link so that you can join in the group calls too. They’re going to happen every other week. They’re 90 minutes, they’re recorded so that if you can’t attend live, you can still get all the super juicy questions and exercises. There’s a live Q&A with me at the end of every call where you can ask for advice and support from the group. It’s $13 a month. And if you’re a Patreon supporter at the $20 level and above, you get free access to those calls. So if you’re already supporting on Patreon and you want to throw in a couple more bucks to get access to those group calls, you can do that. Or you can just subscribe for the group calls at the $13 a month works out to about $6 and 50 cents per call, 90 minutes of juicy practical skill practice. And more than that, it was this bomb around loneliness.

Dawn Serra: It’s so hard to practice and to think and to ask these questions and to confront scary stories by yourself. And sometimes your partner is the person that you are most challenged around talking to, because these topics are so personal and vulnerable. So the group really found that being able to say these scary things and these meaningful things, and these vulnerable things in a space that was specifically designed for letting people do that was amazingly healing. So I would love to see you on these group calls. Again, you can get all the details at dawnserra.com/ep166/ and patreon supporters that support at $20 or more, get free access to those calls. So please check that out. Now, let’s learn a little bit about Ruby before we dive into this amazing, amazing chat. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson is a clinical social worker and sex therapist located in Plano, Texas. Ruby’s primary client-base are folks who are kinky in consensual non-monogamous relationships, who are queer, lesbian, bisexual, and gay, and who are working through sexual challenges. She worked with individuals, couples, triads, quads and polycules, with power dynamics within their relationships. So needless to say, not only does Ruby live the lifestyle, but she works in it in a deep and powerful way. She’s been published in so many different places. She’s presented at tons of conferences, and you’ll hear us actually start the chat with details about her conference that she created and organizes every year called Poly Dallas Millennium. So this will be the third year that this conference is happening. It’s all about connecting with other people within the polyamorous community. It’s family friendly, there’s parenting tracks, and talks all about the realities of being polyamorous, and examining relationships and being with like-minded folks. So you’ll hear all about that. Of course, if you want to check out the conference, because you’re near Dallas or you want to travel to Dallas, the conference is July 14th through the 16th of this year. And they have a huge announcement about who’s keynoting for next year too. So keep your ears and eyes open for that. But let’s jump into this week’s chat and prepare to laugh.

Dawn Serra: Welcome to Sex Gets Real, Ruby. I am so ready for this chat today. I love having you here with me. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Thank you so much. I love being here. 

Dawn Serra: So I know before we get into all of our geekness of all the things that we’re going to totally dig into, you are eyeball-deep in planning Poly Dallas, which is coming up in a couple of weeks and it’s your conference that you plan. How’s that going? 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: It is going very scary. It’s kind of like Murphy’s law – that time period between three to four weeks – all of the planning, everything you thought you planned for, actually you didn’t. So it’s very stressful. I mean, I think I’m going to need two trucks because I have everybody mail everything to me, because I don’t trust the hotel. I have control issues. So yes, I can go on and on and on.

Dawn Serra: At the very end, we will make sure that you can tell everybody how they can check out the conference, but for anybody who’s in the Dallas area or who is interested in traveling to Dallas, your conference is in July, is that right?

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Yes, it is July 14th through the 16th. If you get in town early July 13, we have a meet and greet at a Men’s Lingerie Shop, which is Package Dallas Addicted. Then we started off at 10am on Friday and we don’t stop until noon Sunday.

Dawn Serra: Yay. So for people who are poly, for people who are poly curious, for people in all different kinds of non-monogamous situations or who just want to learn more, this conference is family-friendly, right? 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Yes, you can bring your kids. One of the workshops is with a mom. She’s a therapist, and she’s in a 2/7, which is her power dynamic is 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and they’re also polyamorous and the name of her workshop is Everything You Need To Do Not To Fuck Your Kids Up.

Dawn Serra: I like the sound of that.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: I hope I can cuss.

Dawn Serra: Oh, of course you can. So of course we will have information at dawnserra.com/ep166 and we’ll mention it at the end of our chat. But for anybody looking to connect with community, to learn more, to take classes and seminars, and connect with cool like minded folks – Ruby, you put your heart and soul into Poly Dallas every year. I would love for some Sex Gets Real listeners to go and support you, and to learn all the things I get so many questions about non-monogamy and polyamory. So I think this will be right up some folks’ alley.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Thank you so much. I am more than happy to speak to anyone. I get a lot of emails, a lot of Facebook messages. And I do try to return them quickly. So just whatever you want to ask. I’m an open book.

Dawn Serra: So you’re organizing this conference that’s all about polyamory, and you teach workshops. You’re a therapist, you have so many wonderful experiences and thoughts and you write– Oh my god, you write the most amazing pieces that I hope everyone will check out. I will have links to a few of my favorites in the episode show notes. But here’s where I want to start. Because I love geeking out about pop culture stuff. You and I were chatting recently about polyamory in Hollywood shows and in the media, and you were talking about you wanted to write some thoughts down around the show House of Cards, and I would love to hear what you’ve been thinking about that.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Yes. Number one, I finished season five. I’m ready for season six already. What I love about the show is the seamlessness of how they integrate various other partners into their relationship. They never used to work polyamory. It’s basically a non-verbal communication that happens on so many levels. I’m like, “This is beautiful.” Because for many people, that’s what it looks like. Polyamory is a fairly new word. It was coined in the early 1990s. Some people say the 1970s. But Anapole, I believe, is her last name. She is the one, within one of her communities, where she started using the word polyamory, which is “many loves”. 

So what I love about this show is the connection that they have with the people over a lifetime and how they are ethical. Because each one knows how they – I mean, the wife has had a three-way with her husband and the CIA guard. This season was the most beautiful moment when Francis was going through a whole lot. And Claire was in the bed with the writer, however, Francis was sitting at the foot of the bed, and when Claire woke up there he was, and then he crawled into the bed with them and just slept. There’s also some kink and BDSM stuff going there. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, something you don’t see very often. One of the things that I’ve loved so much about Sense8, my heart is broken that it got canceled. One of the things that I’ve loved so much about Sense8 is, for the past couple of seasons, there’s been this triad between Lito and his boyfriend, and their female friend. They’ve moved in together and they have this very loving relationship. And they don’t call it poly, they don’t even give it a label. It’s just this loving relationship that they’ve all formed together, and then moving in together made sense because of the circumstances. It shows them being really intimate with each other, Lito’s boyfriend and the girlfriend talking together about Lito’s mental health. There’s just something really beautiful about it. 

I also really love the element of the fact that all of these characters are mentally connected and so they regularly have sex as a group and the orgy scenes, of course, were ridiculous hot. One of the things that I’ve noticed so much about the way that the orgy scenes insensate are filmed is that the men are all very physically affectionate with each other and touching and kissing each other as much as the women are. There’s this fluidity around the love, the connection, the touch. It’s not super hetero-centric, it’s not super cis-centric. Of course, they’re all slender bodied folks and they’re all able bodied. But, I guess from Hollywood, we can only ask so much. But I love that we’re starting to see these interesting relationship dynamics in some more popular shows. I know, historically, swinging and polyamory has been presented pretty terribly in the media and you’ve actually written about that a lot. So I love that House of Cards is getting it right and that Sense8 got some stuff right.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Yeah. What I love in what you just said about Sense8, which is now motivating me to watch the series is about the mental connection. The byproduct of polyamory is sex. I mean, sex is not even a thing. Because it’s about many loves. So I have friendships, that’s love. I have families, that’s love. And I have romantic love, that’s love. And I have what we call the in betweens, friends with benefits – that’s love. So what I really find fascinating is that the mental connection is being emphasized from what I’m hearing from you. Because with Claire and Francis, they have an understanding and a mission within their relationships. When I’m working with clients, I tell them this. I’m like, “What is the vision for you, when you decide to open up your relationship? What is it that you see it looking at? What is the mission?” For Francis and Clare, they are power. They are a power couple. And that is what they strive for and that is their understanding. So, having sex with random people is not their number one goal.

Dawn Serra: It’s really interesting. One of the things that I know that you and I have a mutual love for the lovely Meg-John Barker. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Oh….

Dawn Serra: Right. One of the things that I love so much about their work and how much they stress the importance of us all valuing non-sexual loving, supportive relationships – that they recognize that writing partners and longtime friends, and new friends and coworkers, and all of these people who are in our lives offering us these different types of systems of support and love, places to turn for laughter when we just need to feel accepted. These relationships count as loving relationships. When we can start to expand our definition of the ways that we interact with people, we start to find that we have multiple loving relationships. It’s just that mainstream media and the stories we tend to be fed are very sex-focused and a very specific kind of person and situation,of course, like what we saw with that New York Times article recently that you wrote a beautiful response to.

I love this idea of when we talk about loving relationships, it counts when it’s our friends and it counts and it’s our co-workers if we’re getting needs met and feeling nurtured and seen. I mean, those are powerful loving relationships. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Absolutely. That’s what we call, in this world, the relationship anarchy. It’s where you have all of your relationships, there’s not a hierarchy. It’s not saying that the way I love my friend is more important than the way I love an acquaintance. Everyone is on an even playing field. And that is an uncomfortable position for a lot of people because we are socially constructed to believe that there is a hierarchy – to believe that we’re going to marry the one, the love of our life. It’s all based upon a couple. So when we get into the world where they aren’t dismantling those social constructs, it’s very threatening to people outside some of the comments with the New York Times article and then another article the next day. We were called deviants, animalistic, amoral, abnormal. It’s like this normalcy is placed on how relationships are supposed to be. And they’re not offered any alternative. Even the Vice President of the United States says that he does not have lunch with women because he’s a married man.

Dawn Serra: Yes. Oh my god. I know. One of the the things that I’ve run into that – and it’s another reason why I really appreciate Meg-John’s work and I appreciate the work that you’re doing, is there’s also this attitude that runs inside of non-monogamy, polyamory, relationship anarchy circles that I’ve certainly seen and I’ve certainly had people write to me about of, “We’re more evolved.” “We are better.” “We’ve evolved beyond monogamy.” “Monogamy is not natural.” And it feels very confrontational, reactive and defensive. Whereas Meg-John’s approach is very much like – all of these relationship styles exist on a spectrum and we can move in and out of them. No one is better than the other, and we get to choose for ourselves what fits and what doesn’t, and we can go into different crab buckets and stay there for a while, or leave a crab bucket and try something else. 

I think that’s important for people to remember, too, of there is no better, there’s no less than, there is no one is more morally correct than the other. It’s all in, how do you want to cultivate your experiences in your life and your experience of love?

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Right. They talk about commitment and how it has evolved, and how it is defined and how we behave based upon how we define commitment. For many people, commitment within relationships, is “I am committed to this one person and I’m going to protect that commitment no matter what. So I create these rules on top of rules, on top of rules, because I’m so afraid I want to constrain it so that it doesn’t get away from me.” Like, “Don’t text that girl.” “Don’t text that guy.” And all of these rules are about that, because there is this threat. 

We talked about jealousy early. That’s what jealousy is, which is a perceived threat to something that is mine and a thing about ownership. So if we take a look at commitment, and how it has evolved, commitment is not necessarily about commitment to one person. How about commitment to all people to honor the relationship, your well being – “I’m committed as a human being to the well being of others.”

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. So I would love for you to touch on– I’ve had several people on the show, over the years, talking about all different aspects of polyamory and non-monogamy. One of the things I know that you really like talking about is so many of these myths and misconceptions that we see, especially as they’re portrayed and talked about within mainstream circles. So what are a couple of the things that you most want people to understand are not true and/or are inaccurate about being in a poly dynamic?

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Can I use some of them from the list from our article?

Dawn Serra: Oh, yeah.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Number one, polyamory is not about poly fuckery. That is the main one that I want to put forth. Because it’s not all about sex. Sex is great, if that’s your thing. But polyamory – do not put it in the box of that’s what it is. And that’s the ultimate definition. People who are polyamorous do not necessarily start their relationships out of infidelity. It’s not about people cheating on each other. It’s not about somebody wanting to find their thrill because they’re not getting their needs met in one relationship. If you’re going into a polyamorous relationship, because you’re trying to get some other need met, it’s not going to get met in that relationship either. Because nobody can…

For some people, it is a way to further enhance what is already wonderful within their relationships and invite more. So, that’s some of the myths.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, I think that’s a huge one. You’re so right. A lot of the questions that I get here, on the show, are from people who are in tremendous pain and distress because for whatever reason – their relationship is no longer sexual or it’s rarely sexual, and they’re feeling very neglected and rejected and invisible. So they are wanting to know about non-monogamy and polyamory as an option. I would never say “Never do this.” But I think what you just said is so important of the best place to explore polyamory is from a healthy place. The problems that exist in your current relationship will only be magnified when you start adding in these additional situations where now there’s going to be bigger feelings, and where communication potentially is really going to matter. And that’s not to say for everyone – jumping into poly automatically creates distress. But if you’re in a place of distress, and you’re trying to patch over it with other people, you’re asking for a lot of trouble unless you have a very skilled professional helping you along the way.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Right. I want to backtrack on what you said about “healthy”. And that’s a very relative…

Dawn Serra: Yes, it is. Yeah, let’s clarify.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Yeah. For some people, healthy looks one way. They don’t want any drama or they don’t want anything physical going on with one partner. One partner is maybe going through a depressive episode or a diabetes episode that’s lasting a whole year, where they can’t get their sugars in balance. So healthy, when I say that is, it depends on a lot of things. Because there’s some people who tell their partners because they cannot have sex, tell their partners, “I’m okay with you going and getting your sexual needs met.” Because that is truly something that this partner cannot do for cancer or some type of issue with their body. This is actually something that their partner has a choice of. They’re not forcing their partner, but they’re saying, “Yes, you can do this.” So if a relationship needs to be perfect…

Dawn Serra: No. That will never happen. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Does that make sense?

Dawn Serra: Absolutely. I think like that’s so important. I think maybe instead of saying healthy, the word, I think, I would have preferred to have used myself is based in respect, ethics, and choice.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Perfect. Perfect. That’s it. 

Dawn Serra: So we are ethically having this conversation, we are going at it together, we’re having open communication about it. And we’re not using pressure, manipulation, guilt to try and get another partner to do something that they either don’t want to do or aren’t ready to do. I think that you can certainly have all kinds of different physical health issues, mental health struggles, and absolutely be great at non-monogamy situations., which for me, is another myth I’ve seen of you better get your mental health shit together before you’re poly because you can’t be good at it if you’ve got anxiety or depression or bipolar. And that’s also, bullshit.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: I have bipolar. My husband has depression. We enjoy the hell out of ourselves.

Dawn Serra: See, there you go.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: It’s a lot about those hidden disabilities that people tend to – it’s also another social construct that you have a what is the ideal. You have to be healthy. Mental illness or a mental disability is viewed as some type of character deficiency. I think that’s a bunch of bullshit. If we bring it into our relationships across the board, if that is a contingency or a… What’s the word I’m thinking of? Condition of having a good relationship, then none of us will have one because as research has shown, everybody has some level of neuroses. 

Dawn Serra: Yes, yep. Absolutely. To use that as a weapon against others or as a reason to reject them is ridiculou. I think one of the things that’s really beautiful is that as we develop our language, as we expand our stories around what’s possible, even if you’re not choosing non-monogamy or polyamory, knowing that it’s an option and giving yourself a chance to really sit and think like, “Would this be something I’m interested in?” And if you decide, “No, I really like love this monogamous situation I’m in,” then great. You’re making a conscious decision with lots of information in front of you. So there’s some really beautiful things, I think, around polyamory and non-monogamy, questioning norms, and giving people an opportunity to try on new ways of connecting with others. 

Poly communities also have a history of being pretty whitewashed and having a lot of racism. There’s certainly some misogyny baked into certain poly ideals. I know you’ve talked, too, about with poly communities – there’s also ageism, classism, fatphobia, ableism. Let’s talk about that a little bit because I think I want to make sure people go in knowing poly communities may sound more evolved in a way, but they have just as many oppressive frameworks that they’re standing on as any other community. The more we know that, the more than we can go in with eyes wide open and make change happen.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Okay. You just have to interrupt me here and there, because I can easily go all kinds of places.

Dawn Serra: Let it rip.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Oh, man. Okay, number one – One of the first things that I want to say is that solo polyamory is not giving enough exposure, because there’s some people– It’s not required that they’re in a couple. And that’s one of the things that is really oppressive is that couples aren’t given more exposure, more workshops, more everything than someone who’s in solo polyamory, which is they don’t want to be necessarily with any one person. They just want to move around and let it flow for themselves. 

Number two, those who think – this is for me, what I found, in the poly community is there’s a whole lot of intellectual prowess. People who think they’re smarter than what they actually are. People who think they’re more evolved than what they actually are. So that’s an onus, that within the consensual or ethical non-monogamy community is that they’re really full of themselves and that fucks with me?

Dawn Serra: Yes.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: And yes, there is a whole lot of… It’s very homogenous. There’s a lot of white folks. It’s a lot of white folks and here’s what I find very interesting. Ageism – I’m not sure which way you were looking at that. Which way were you looking at ageism on both ends?

Dawn Serra: Yes. Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen older men wanting partnerships with younger and younger women and valuing that. Certainly some kind of appreciative cougar situations, but I’ve tended to notice that younger people are discounted as not having wisdom or experience and that older people are seen as undesirable and not wanted.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Okay, so I could talk about all that in a couple of sentences, I promise. I was at Poly Loving More up in Philly. One of the people was saying that there’s not enough young people. Young people are, like you said, we’re not valued. Our voices are not out there and we’re not seen. Where are all the young people? She was like, old people are 40 and 50 – that’s a whole ‘nother conversation. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, that is a whole ‘nother conversation. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: But the crowd was very white, very male. So that’s something that is very much there. Now, in Dallas, what I’m finding is that there’s a lot of unicorn hunting. I just was talking about this yesterday. It’s one of those mano-normative social constructs that people don’t think they have coming right on in to their polyamorous relationships, because they are looking for the perfect third to join their couple. It has to be this person, this one person is going to be perfect and we’re going to bring them in, they’re going to love us all, and that we want to go and live happily ever after. 

In one of the groups, ‘casue there’s several comments and as I’m reading through this, this is about somebody, a unicorn is usually a bisexual hot woman who’s single and who wants to attach to them. I can’t tell you how many messages I receive, with people saying, “Me and my wife are just getting into polyamory and we’re looking for a third. Can you send somebody our way?” Like they’re ordering something out of a frickin McDonald’s drive-thru window. What the hell is that? Sometimes I’m surprised no one’s screenshotted some of my responses. That is crazy and it is usually men who do it, and that is that misogyny piece. Because, a lot of men have that one big policy and they don’t want – their woman can have sex with other women as long as they are there. But they can go and do their thing over here on the side. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: There are some women who have – they have a one pussy policy. OPP is what – “Are you down with OPP?” Oh god.

Dawn Serra: That’s perfect.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: That gets really, really – That brings on a whole lot of men within these groups saying, “Where are all the hot women at? I just want a woman that’s going to love me.” And all of this. I’m like, “Really? That’s your line? ‘I just want someone who’s going to love me.’” Let me run to you, you selfish bastard.

Dawn Serra: Oh, bless you for saying that.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: I am so unfiltered today.

Dawn Serra: Oh my god, you’re killing it. You are killing it. These are many thoughts I have had.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: The way I see it – there was this picture in this one group, and it was two young ladies laying across a man and he was holding them up with his arms, and they were laying in each other’s shoulder. People were like, “That is what I want. That is the perfect thing.”

Dawn Serra: Yeah. It’s kind of like taking this ridiculous cultural ideal that we have around men automatically earn access to beautiful, young, thin, able-bodied white women simply because they’ve been born male. It doubles that patriarchal misogynistic crap.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: It’s also black people.

Dawn Serra: Oh, sure.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: It’s an equal opportunity offender.

Dawn Serra: Yes. I do think that when we’re thinking about dating apps and stuff, the people who have the highest value on dating apps are always white women. So for people who are searching for their perfect unicorn or for people who are on Tinder, and they’re swiping, the pinnacle of dating app folks are white women. Then you go down the list and now we start seeing white men and then different races with Asian women being fairly high and Asian men being very low, and black men and black women. It’s like all of our racism is, of course, playing out in so many of these fantasies. That’s not to say that of course, black men and black women and Asian men and Asian women don’t experience these fantasies as well – of having these gorgeous beings draped all over them. But it’s like we’re seeing these cultural norms being doubled. We’re seeing like, “Here’s the pinnacle of polyamory. It’s an older white dude with two young thin women draped on him.”

Ruby Bouie Johnson: That’s why it’s so dumb, I had to say it, to believe that as a polyamorous person that are more evolved and more intelligent than anyone. I was raised in America, I was raised in an institution of white supremacy. I was raised in an institution of oppression, marginalization, and disembodiment based upon my skin. That’s what this country is based upon. So it’s going to follow me wherever I go, I can’t do nothing about it. The white folks can, but I can’t do nothing about it. I just went totally off. I’m so sorry.

Dawn Serra: No, don’t apologize. I want people to hear the realities of what’s going on. Kevin Patterson, who was at the Explore More Summit, talked a lot about race and polyamory, and how many times he’s gone into kink spaces and poly spaces, and been the only black man there. It shouldn’t be his responsibility, but he takes it upon himself to call the organizers out and say like, “What the fuck, where are the other people of color? You said this was an inclusive event, but it sure doesn’t feel like one.” So many of the people that listen to this show are either community leaders or are people looking to move into kink communities or poly communities, and to try these things on and this is kind of their permission slip to do that. 

People need to know that what’s baked into so many of these communities is a continuation of all of the systems of oppression that we see it plays. You’re going to find misogyny, you’re going to find people who don’t value consent just as much in poly communities as not, you’re going to find racism and ageism and classism. That’s not to say you shouldn’t move into kink communities or poly communities, if that’s what you want to do. But go in knowing this exists, and so I need to make sure 1.) I’m not contributing to the problem, and 2.) that I’m using my voice and my power – especially if I’m privileged in some way as a white person or a male, to start asking hard questions, so that we can start actually shifting ourselves away from this. 

Dawn Serra: I’m so glad that you brought your passion and your frustration, and all of your words because we need to say these things. They don’t get better if we just pretend like it’s not there. I think, unfortunately, a lot of communities – sex positive communities and kink communities, swinger communities – Oh, god, swinger communities. They like to pretend like this isn’t a problem for them. Then we find massive segregation, and we find disabled people not able to even get into events because the spaces aren’t accessible and all of this stuff. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Dawn, I’m going to take a risk and I’m going to say two minutes of stuff.

Dawn Serra: Okay, let’s go. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Okay. So number one, Simply educating people about inclusivity and consent does not make it a thing. It’s not a deliverable just because you have the knowledge.

Dawn Serra: Right. There has to be action.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: I can’t infuse this inside of you by teaching it to you. Inclusivity is not something that is written in policy, it’s something that is seen. It is a performable. If you say that you are inclusive and that is in your mission, you are not meeting that mission if they’re still all white people.

Dawn Serra: Yes.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Right? Poly Dallas is an inclusive symposium. 70% of our speakers are black. We have another – some 15% are white. We had someone – with intention, we created this type of symposium with intention. You know with the intention, how that worked? We walked up to people, I called them and I said, “I would love for you to come and speak.” I had open calls. Absolutely. But I took a look at what my open call was and said, “I need more of this and more of that and more.” And it’s okay to do that. That’s not cherry– Well, hell yes, it is cherry picking. That’s okay, until it’s built. Because once I start seeing that I am welcome, I will go. 

If you tell me in all white business, “Opportunity is for everybody. Everyone is welcome.” No, I’m not going to be the only black woman with all you white man. Are you crazy? No. So the opportunity hoarding, that is within even the polyamorous leadership is something that is a very real thing because polyamory claims to be inclusive. But I just want you to look at it.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I agree with you. We have a responsibility, especially when we’re in leadership positions, to specifically lift up and make space for people who aren’t being given the space or who don’t take the space up because they don’t think they can. Whether that is reaching out to people or moving into communities and asking people in that community to help you get connected – whether it’s finding more people with disabilities to be part of your community or people of color or fat bodied people, for the love of God, please make sure the pictures you use on your events and on your Facebook pages include fat bodied people.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: My favorite type of woman. 

Dawn Serra: Right! We have to take the action and I’m so glad you said that. Learning is a good first step, but it’s not the final step. We actually have to have those conversations, make those invitations, do the reaching out, do that extra work, and then we’re rewarded for it. Because we have these rich conversations, like you and I are having, and we get to learn from other people and meet fascinating, brilliant folks that we might not otherwise have ever met. Honestly, you don’t do it because you’re going to get something, you do it because it’s the right thing to do. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: I thoroughly thoroughly agree and I think it’s the right thing to do with intention in life. Take a look at your friend base. Take a look at your colleague base – because this is truly – our community is a reflection of who we are. I take a look at my friend base- some people may not have any white friends. Some people may not have any Latina friends, any Vietnamese, Filipino, Black Puerto Rican.

I am a continuous self-learner. And the thing is, I can speak to this. But as a therapist, I go into the communities that I serve. So that can be anyone who walks through the door. So I’m in constant knowledge-gaining and talking and meeting. I’m married to a white man and I’m a militant woman. I call him my Aryan nation. He’s blond hair and blue-eyed. I am so unfiltered with you. This is so not right.

Dawn Serra: It’s okay. We can just get into trouble together.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Oh, yeah. This is going to be out in public. Oh, well.

Dawn Serra: Yes it is. So, I want us to circle back to something that you wrote when you were responding to the New York Times piece which, for everybody listening, if you didn’t see the New York Times piece on polyamory I will link to it on sex gets real for this episode as well as Ruby’s brilliant response to it. One of the things you were talking about poly is, and then you listed a whole bunch of skills and ways that you actually really, truly, ethically live and experience polyamory and all of its different versions. 

The last one I thought was so important for people to understand because I think even in monogamous relationships – I work with a lot of couples one on one, and one of the things that I’ve noticed that a lot of couples in distress do is this scorekeeping of, “I did this once, you have to do it once. I did this three times. You owe me two more.” You talked about how it’s not about equal sharing. It’s about getting needs met, and so that can look lots of different ways. It’s less about balancing everything and making it exactly the same, and more about actually negotiating all of these different needs from different people. And that may look equal on paper, but feel wonderful in how it’s lived out. So I’d love to talk about that a little bit more, because I think listeners might be surprised by that. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: That’s something that I see that causes a lot of issues. I have seen it looked like this when I’m in a group full of poly women, someone suggests to someone “When he’s out on a date with someone, don’t sit at home. Go out on a date yourself.” So it’s like that quid pro quo. It’s kind of like that tit for tat. “If you have three days with so and so, I need to have three days with this person.” And it becomes this scarcity thing. So getting out of the scarcity model of relationships and interactions is one of the most freeing and liberating things that one can do for themselves in every place. Because one of my partners and me may only meet one day together, that may be all we want. Then another one of my partners, we may meet three days together. So that may mean I see you two days. But are you looking at it as, “I’m spending all of this time away?” Or are you looking at it as, “I needed you more than two days,” if that makes sense? It’s all about negotiating because if you want to see me more, tell me you want to see me more. It’s about equitable access. It’s just simply about talking out with all your partners. 

Don’t forget about yourself. How many days does Ruby need? I can tell you for sure, I need two days – 48 hours straight, where nobody fucks with me. That’s what I need. I tell my husband, “Go in your room and play your game. You don’t have to…” I mean, I’m here, you know I’m here. We’re being together. No, I’m kidding. But that’s what I need from myself and that is non-negotiable. When I say it’s non-negotiable, me having consummate love for myself and that consummate love is intimacy, integrity, and affection. So me having that for myself is number one. So I’m able to fully give to you wholeheartedly and take just what I need. Because I’m whole on the inside. So I’m not with you because you complete me. I’m with you because I want to be with you. And I don’t need to be with you in this sense of you give me my worth and all of that. I choose to be with you because I enjoy your company, and you have a nice smile.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. I love that you’re– I think regardless of what kind of relationship you’re in, whether it’s solo poly or single by choice or married for 40 years or polyamorous, in a quad or whatever it is, making sure – and this I think becomes especially challenging when you’re a parent – making sure that you are on the calendar. You and you alone to take care of you and take care of you might be going to doctor’s appointments and maintaining your health. It might be going to yoga classes or going out for drinks with friends or just sitting on your ass and Netflixing the entire Orange is The New Black season – whatever it is. Making sure that you have time that is respected, that others don’t encroach on so that you can enjoy yourself. Even if it’s small snippets throughout the day, whatever it is. 

I love that you have that baked in and that you’re telling other people, “You can do this and it’s good for you to do this.” Because otherwise you get so exhausted and burnt out, and overstimulated and you never have a time to even check in with you.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Then it becomes, what am I actually doing here? Is that about collecting? Or is it about relating? If that makes sense.

Dawn Serra: Absolutely. Yeah, I like to talk a lot about how the culture teaches us to perform love and perform sex, instead of experiencing love and experiencing sex. I think what you’re saying is very similar of collecting and performing, and trying to do for others or look and appear a certain way. We’re kind of numb out even with – I know lots of people who numb out through having lots and lots to do all the time with, lots of different people and lots of different dates, and lots of different sex. Not that you can’t do that from a place that feels really great and grounded, but when are you actually getting a chance to say, “Dawn, what’s going on for you? What do you need? What are you feeling? What are you thinking?” Even if it’s super confusing and you don’t know. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Yeah. In that same vein, some people like to say, “I have 10 partners.” “I have 12 partners and 25 metamours.” It’s like a competition. “I have more than you have. So I’m better than you are.” Not realizing it’s about the relationship. It’s not about you, collecting a harem. Actually had someone who had– Oh, I’m not even going there. Because they’ll know that I’m talking about them. That was actually a thing, and it will spread throughout the community. 

Dawn Serra: My god. Well, I think the takeaway is folks, think about what you’re doing. Don’t be an asshole just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. Let’s questions some things and maybe we’ll all be a little better for it.

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Yes, yes. Dawn, what do we talk about? A lot of good things?

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Let’s wrap up with that. Let’s wrap up with why you wanted to create Poly Dallas, what this has meant to you in your personal journey. What are the wonderful things that you’ve experienced in you’re creating and you’re cultivating? So that people can hear, let’s be cautious and smart and wise and aware and action-oriented, and let’s also celebrate and enjoy and savor. So what are those, celebrate, enjoy, and savor things for you?

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Celebrate not being unshackled, literally and figuratively. Celebrate the ability to be comfortable in my skin, the ability to talk about my real relational social issues. That’s what Poly Dallas is about. It started out as a way to educate clinicians and it grew into a community movement that I’m hoping to continue. Ultimately, I wanted to become a think tank and an incubator for research. I mean, that’s my long term goal. And what I’ve gotten out of it is a whole lot of beautiful relationships. What people don’t know is that I ain’t got no money. I ain’t getting rich. This is not about getting rich, because believe me… I have a service heart. So I love being of service to the community and to society. I’m hoping that we can demystify all that is different from ourselves. Did that answer your question?

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Let’s also, quickly, I think a lot of people worry about the complications that can come with managing multiple relationships. But there’s also so many beautiful things that can happen that way. I mean, even if we’re not talking about sexual relationships, we’re talking about juggling different kinds of friendships and creative partnerships and intimate marriage or whatever it is. There’s so many beautiful things that come from having these different sources of love and inspiration, and knowing you’re not alone. Even if someone in your life maybe has a lot going on, you’ve got other people to turn to. For you, what is being in a poly marriage meant for you around support and love and feeling seen? 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Oh, wow. That’s a deep question. Being in a polyamorous relationship, I’m going to speak from what it has given me mentally and emotionally. Before age about 38, I’m 44 now. At age 38, I have been out of relationships for three years. I decided to give myself a break. I was someone who was scared of relationships. I felt threatened by them. I felt like I was going to be abused, etc. Because that is what I had as a lived experience. Then I meet people, these new people who are kinky and poly, and there’s – what I felt was this magical freeness and they’re not worried about who’s doing what with what. It all be okay. It was like a lackadaisical, I think I’m not saying that word right, way of being in a relationship. But that wasn’t what it was, that was actually trust and faith, and courage and commitment within those relationships. And that’s what I’ve gained, emotionally and mentally actually healed as a result of being polyamorous.

I mean, I healed as a result of that high school stuff, just because she’s not your friend, doesn’t mean that she can’t be my friend – that type of thinking and mentality. So within my relationship, oh my gosh, my husband has passwords to everything I have. I mean, he has access to everything. I don’t have to hide my phone, hide my life. He knows everything that I do. He looks over my shoulder, “What you doing?” It’s the same way on both sides. It’s that trust that we have with each other. We just have one problem, which is he wants to date as a couple and I don’t. So I’m like, “You’re going to be alone a lot, because I gonna be out.” No, but it’s been an amazing ride. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Another thing that is a huge benefit is that there’s a lot of people – the poly community pulls together if you have that tribe, if you have that network. What you can’t do as one, you can do with many people.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. I think that’s such a beautiful note to end on. I would love it if you would share with everyone how they can learn about Poly Dallas and how they can stay in touch with you online and social media. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: You can learn about Poly Dallas at polydallasmillennium.com. You have to double check, Dawn. 

Dawn Serra: Is that dot com?

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Yes, it’s dot com. I’m sure you’ll have links. Then you can also reach me via email. I’m just going to give you my work email, rubyjohnsonlcsw@gmail.com. You can also reach me at blacksexgeek.net.That’s it.

Dawn Serra: You are @blacksexgeek on Twitter and Facebook as well. Right? 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: I am.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, so definitely follow @blacksexgeek on Twitter and Facebook. That’s where, Ruby, you post your articles and your thoughts. They’re so rich and wonderful. I want people to check those out. I will, of course, have all of those links at dawnserra.com/ep166 for this episode. So Ruby, thank you so much for making me laugh so much and sharing so much realness with us. 

Ruby Bouie Johnson: Thank you. You bring out the best in me, Dawn.

Dawn Serra: Yes, I do. To everybody who tuned in, thank you so much for listening. Be sure to head to dawnserra.com for all of the links to check out Poly Dallas. Of course, you can send me a message, you can send in your questions, your comments, your fears, your concerns. I love sharing those on future episodes and I would love to hear from you. Don’t forget to go to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show, and I will talk to you next week. Bye.