Patreon supporters! The supporter-only PJ party is April 17th, so check it out at patreon.com/sgrpodcast and support at any level to get access.

I am reading a devastating, lyrical book called “Abandon Me” by Melissa Febos. I’m desperately working to get her on the show soon to talk about her memoir (and her former work as a dominatrix).

In the meantime, this week’s show is a fun, informative interview with Siouxsie Q.

We dive into her work with the Free Speech Coalition combatting harmful anti-porn, anti-sex work laws, including talking about what we can do, as consumers of porn, to help protect workers in the industry. You’ll be especially horrified at the new set of laws sweeping the U.S. in the wake of the “porn health crisis” that everyone is freaking out about – with zero evidence, I might add.

Then we talk about why porn is her favorite, what her parents think of her adult industry career, and we wrap up our chat fielding some listener questions about polyamory and non-monogamy.

Oh! And we dive into why sex is magic and why sex workers are some of the most powerful beings on earth. LOVE IT.

It’s a blast, Siouxsie is so sweet and smart, and I know you’re going to love it.

Don’t forget to send in your sex confessions! I created a guidelines page for you. March & April’s theme will be messes!

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook. It’s true. Oh! And Dawn is on Instagram.

In this episode, Siouxsie and I talk about:

• Siouxsie’s work in campaigning against Prop 60 in California last year and why it was so important that the entire adult industry mobilized against this terrible bill. Yay for defeating it! It could have destroyed the porn industry.
• CalOSHA and how regulation needs to include the voices of the people it seeks to legislate or regulate – like sex workers and porn.
• The Free Speech Coalition and all the amazing work they do for the adult industry. Your membership, if you love porn and want to support sex worker rights, helps keep them doing this rad work. Check it out here!
• The Human Trafficking Prevention Act that is showing up in all 50 states but it’s targeting porn  and consumers rather than actually trying to help trafficked victims. Utah is going to terrifying lengths to ban porn. Loads of states are declaring porn a “public health crisis” without any actual evidence or data. The fear-mongering is getting ridiculous.
• How can consumers get involved in these issues? Siouxsie has ideas!
• Why Siouxsie loves performing in porn the most of the various forms of sex work she’s experienced. She just recently got back into porn and filmed a scene with Andre Shakti.
• The beauty of filming sex and how it’s different from sex that’s private.
• Siouxsie’s parents and how amazing they are about her choices and supporting her journey. It’s pure delight.
• A listener question from A about polyamory. She has a husband and a boyfriend, but her husband is having a hard time finding a partner for himself. This is causing pain and suffering, and A is wondering how to help support her husband.
• Crushes and how to navigate a crush when you’re in a monogamous relationship. Listener Julia needs help, and Siouxsie, who loves crushes, has loads of advice.
• Telling your partner when you have a crush, or even talking about crushes when you’re in a monogamous relationship and how to navigate those feelings BEFORE something happens is so important. Talk about the things.
• Why Siouxsie calls herself the worst girlfriend in America on a regular basis.

About Siouxsie Q

Siouxsie got her start in the business dancing at the unionized Lusty Lady Theater in San Francisco, and has worked as a performer in adult films since 2012, garnering two AVN Award Nominations and a Feminist Porn Award. During that time, she has been an unrelenting advocate for the rights of all sex workers.

Siouxsie Q is an author, weekly columnist for SF Weekly, and the creator of The Whorecast, a podcast network showcasing the diverse voices of the adult industry. She has lectured extensively on sex and sex work, and is regularly quoted and featured in the mainstream media, including CNN, USA Today, Cosmopolitan, Wired, Buzzfeed and America with Jorge Ramos. Her first book, Truth, Justice, and the American Whore, was published this year through 3L Media to rave reviews.

She joined The Free Speech Coalition, the trade association of the adult industry, in May of 2016, to help them soundly defeat both Cal/Osha Regulation 5193.1, and Proposition 60, both of which would have put adult film performers at immense risk.

She recently has returned to performing in adult films, and is excited to continue campaigning for the rights of adult industry workers, specifically through combatting the harmful wave of legislation declaring pornography to be a “public health crisis.”

You can stay in touch by following Siouxsie on Twitter @whorecast, @siouxsieqjames, @fscarmy, by reading her book “Truth, Justice, and the American Whore,” by checking out Free Speech Coalition, and by popping over to Instagram as TheRealWhoreNextDoor.

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!

Hey, lovely listeners. Here we are with another episode. This week’s features a wonderful and enlightening interview with Siouxsie Q. We talk all about some legislation that is sweeping across the United States, that is anti-porn, anti-sex work. She talks to us about the Prop 60 work that she did in California and her work with the Free Speech Coalition. We talk about why she loves porn so much as a performer, how her parents feel about it, and then we field some listener questions at the end of the hour all about polyamory. 

Dawn Serra: Before we get there, though, I just want to remind you, this episode is coming out on April 16, which is Easter Sunday for those of you who observe. On Monday, April 17, in the evening, for U.S. and Canada folks, there is going to be an online PJ party, if you are a Patreon supporter of the show. So if you go to patreon.com/sgrpodcast and support at any level before the PJ party, you can get access. It’s going to be a fun online chat, that’s us shooting the shit, and me answering questions and finding out about all of you. It’s going to be casual and laid back and fun. I would love to have you there. Of course, your support helps me to keep doing this work as a sex educator and as a podcaster. So every single dollar makes a huge difference. 

I’m also feeling really emotional as I record this, because I’ve just started reading Abandon Me by Melissa Febos, which is a memoir. It is lyrical and moving. The thing that is making me feel so emotional is I feel like she’s giving words to so many of the demons that I carry, and it feels vulnerable and exposing, and magical all at the same time. So I am hoping to actually get her on the show at some point in the next couple of months because I’ve reached out to the publisher. So if you’re looking for a really moving, well written, gorgeous book, then you might want to check that one out. 

Dawn Serra: So let me tell you all about Siouxsie Q, and we’ll jump into this interview. So Siouxsie got her start in the business dancing at the Unionized Lusty Lady theater in Santa Francisco, and has worked as a performer in adult films since 2012 – garnering 2 AVN Award nominations and a feminist porn award. During that time, she has been an unrelenting advocate for the rights of all sex workers. She also spoke at Erotic Film School when I was there a couple of weeks ago, which was amazing. 

Siouxsie Q is an author, weekly columnist for SF Weekly, and the creator of The Whorecast. Her first book, Truth, Justice, and the American Whore, which is super fun to read, was published last year; and we do a little snippet from the book in this interview. She joined the Free Speech Coalition, which is the trade association of the adult industry in May of 2016, to help them sound totally defeat both Cal OSHA Regulation 5193 and Proposition 60 in California; both of which have put adult Film performers at immense risk. She has recently returned to performing in adult films and is excited to continue campaigning for the rights of adult industry workers, specifically through combating the harmful wave of legislation declaring pornography to be a public health crisis in which is where we start the interview. So here we go.

Dawn Serra: Welcome to Sex Gets Real. I’m so excited to be chatting with you today.

Siouxsie Q.: Yay, me too! Hi!

Dawn Serra: Hi! I just told the listeners all about your work and your bio, and all the things that you do – from podcasting and weekly columns to working with the Free Speech Coalition and porn. You do some really incredible things in your life.

Siouxsie Q.: Thank you. Thank you so much for those kind words. Yeah, I do stay pretty busy. When you stack it all up against each other at once. Cocktail parties are awkward, always, I think, if you work in the adult industry like “Hey, what do you do?” Even if I’m fine with telling someone that I do sex work, among other things. The resume that comes out is a little awkward. It’s like, “Hey, I’m not no not done. There’s another common…”

Dawn Serra: “But wait, there’s more.”

Siouxsie Q.: I just pick ones that don’t sound like an asshole. 

Dawn Serra: There’s a ton of things that I want us to roll around in today. But I know that you recently actually took a break from filming porn and sex work, so that you could dedicate all of your time to Prop 60 in California, which had a wonderful outcome for the immediacy of that proposition. We’ll talk about that some more. But before we hopped on the recording, we were talking about how so many people were stepping up to the plate and sharing, and vocalizing and doing interviews – there was this massive movement from the porn and sex work industry to push against this proposition in California. It was so powerful and moving. 

I’d love to hear from you, what was it like to be in the center of that and working so hard in bringing all these voices together, and grassroots campaigning your heart out?

Siouxsie Q.: That’s exactly what it was like. So the fight against Proposition 60, really quick for folks who don’t know, Proposition 60, was a statewide ballot initiative here in California, that essentially– I like calling it a Trojan horse initiative. I swear to God, I’m having PTSD right now. I’m making sound bites of Prop 60 – so intensely for six months or more, every time I did a podcast or an interview, or a tweet or a phone call or anything. It was like, “So what is Prop 60? Why is it bad and why should we vote no?” 

Proposition 60 was a Trojan horse initiative. It purported to be about protecting performers by mandating the use of condoms and barriers and adult films. Condoms are great, right? Health and safety are great. It sounded fabulous, just like so many pieces of legislation around the adult industry usually do. They play off of people’s misconceptions and ignorances, about the adult industry. So while there are plenty of performers who only shoot with condoms, there are plenty of studios that only shoot with condoms. But there are also plenty of performers, myself included, who want another option. Condoms are not the best option, and we want what has been utilized and successful for over a decade in the adult industry, which is the industry-regulated testing protocols – the performer availability screening service, which is run out of the Free Speech Coalition office that I’m speaking to you from right now. That allows performers to be tested for seven different STIs every 14 days. Ensuring that I know my status, I know my partner’s status baseline. So whether we use a condom or not is going to be affected by that knowledge. 

Siouxsie Q.: So anyway, what Prop 60 would have done is incentivize harassment from any person in the state would be able to file a lawsuit, against the performers and producers of any film that didn’t showcase a condom in every single frame. So this could have decimated the adult film industry by allowing any person to file a lawsuit and receive 25% of the damages. We were actually financially incentivizing people to come after a marginalized workforce, getting access to our legal names, and home addresses through legal processes that compromise our privacy. It was really a nightmare. But it was very, very difficult to get people to understand why it was a nightmare, because it was publicized as health and safety – condoms and adult films. Everyone agrees with that, which is why it was so phenomenal to see the entire adult industry – from cam girls to pleasure products, companies, to consumers, to sexual health organizations really come out, understand that if you’re going to make laws about a marginalized population, you have to listen to them. So we’re so grateful that California voters listened to adult film industry workers. 

Prop 60 was rejected by 54 out of 58 counties, over a million votes. I wish that the night of November 8, we had been able to feel that victory a little bit more. But I was on the floor of vivid entertainment in Studio City, sobbing into my savvy on blonk on the floor like a child. It was not with joy. The Trump election was very hard for a lot of our community. But the Prop 60 victory, I think was the one silver lining. We were able to say okay, “Even in the light of this fascist predator taking office, that we’ve shown that when our community unites and fights around a cause, we win. That’s what we’ve been able to take away from the Prop 60 battle and that’s priceless. But it did really feel like living inside Newsies. It was like this ragtag bunch of folks and doing the impossible. It was incredible. It was one of the best things I’ve ever done.

Dawn Serra: I’m covered in goosebumps from head to toe just listening to you talk. I think one of the things such as hits me so hard is, you and I know and most of the listeners for the show know at this point after all of my preaching about porn, that most of what we see in the news and in legislation is fear-based and not at all based in science or reality. To see groups who don’t have millions and millions of dollars at their disposal actually banding together; and doing these grassroots campaigns and literal protests and interviews with news organizations all around the world, and to come together and have this victory is so fantastic. Then my heart also breaks knowing that this incredible victory also happened on the same night as so many other terrible, terrible losses. Because that takes away from the chance to really, truly celebrate. 

Siouxsie Q.: We’ve definitely, as a community, been celebrating fits and starts because there was not that moment of victory that we really got to feel. But still that those ripples are… I think we’re still seeing them and we’ll continue to see them. Because it was not only that victory, but a couple months prior, when I first signed on to work with the Free Speech Coalition, it was to help with their social media strategy around mobilizing performers to come to this Cal OSHA meeting. Now, OSHA is the regulatory body in the state in charge of workplace safety, whether it’s a construction site or medical setting or a porn set. It Healthcare Foundation, who were the main sponsors of Proposition 60, Measured Me, AB-1576 – all of the attacks on the adult industry around mandatory condoms and regulations that are not drafted with any input from active performers. So those same folks have drafted regulations via Cal OSHA that, again, were completely unworkable for our workforce and have not been drafted with our input in any capacity. 

This is probably, if anyone has been following this storyline, where you heard about, that these regulations would mandate goggles and gloves in every scene. That we wouldn’t be able to see kissing any more, because the regulations are actually drafted for an emergency medical setting. They’ve been cut and pasted, and placed on top of adult film, when that doesn’t make any sense. That’s not the reality that people are making films and it’s not the same as an emergency medical setting – you know someone’s status if you’re using the testing protocol, so on and so forth. So it was my job to help mobilize performers to come to this Cal OSHA meeting, give testimony, and convince the Cal OSHA standards board to throw out these regulations and start from scratch, and include the voices of the workers at the center of the conversation. We did that! No one thought that that would happen. It was nuts. 

Siouxsie Q.: So that happened in February, Prop 60, was defeated in November. Also, during that time, we had another big victory with a 2257 – I’m not sure, folks, anyone who performs in adult film or nude modeling, or sex on film of any kind is probably filled out a 2257 form. We always want to ensure that the people who are performing in adult films are of legal age are adults, by adults, for adults. However, 2257 was, again, you’ll see a pattern here, drafted without the input of working people in the industry. So it’s full of very intense record keeping components that compromise performer privacy in a huge way. 

The Free Speech Coalition has been litigating around the privacy issues of 2257 for almost a decade now. We had some huge victories in that case, also around that same time this year – declaring under the Fourth Amendment, that key components of 2257 are straight up unconstitutional. You can’t put that much of a burden on – you can’t say that if someone doesn’t do a proper job of record keeping or doesn’t check a box or, that they are then a child pornographer and should face a mandatory minimum – that is an undue burden. That’s not a focused piece of legislation. So big victories this year for the adult film world and the adult industry, at large, even as we head into this year and face such things.

Dawn Serra: We were talking about how I’m temporarily in Utah and some of the anti-porn legislation that has been going on here, which of course, has deep roots in religious beliefs around pornography and things like that. But making it illegal to view porn to own porn. Then these other approaches of actually trying to mandate the way that we work, which are labor issues, and these multi-pronged attacks that seem to be consistently coming at the adult industry. It just baffles me how time and time and time again, when performers stand up and speak out and say, “This is not the truth. This is not my lived reality.” People don’t want to listen. But to know that the public was willing to hear those messages around Prop 60 and that Cal OSHA was willing to actually say, “Hey, maybe we should actually talk to the people this impacts.” That makes me feel so hopeful, even as we look ahead under a Trump presidency and this very right wing conservative swing that we’re seeing, which, I’m sure will bring even more attempts at regulation and legislation. But at least now we’ve seen some beautiful victories and what it means when everyone stands up, and when people like you do this work so tirelessly and so generously. 

Siouxsie Q.: It was a full community effort. Every single person did their part and that’s why it worked. The Free Speech Coalition orchestrated the attacks, but the soldiers, the people with the boots on the ground, was everyone in the adult industry – from consumers to cam girls to huge companies. That’s what it took. And that’s what it’ll take, again. You mentioned that you’re in Utah. So Utah is where we’ve seen the full scale of what is coming next. So there’s a wave of legislation happening across the nation, in pretty much all of the 50 states, called The Human Trafficking Prevention Act. I don’t know if folks have heard about this, but essentially, it’s conflating legal pornography and making it a scapegoat for many ills in this world, including specifically, human trafficking. 

However, the way it attacks that is through mandatory blocks, bans, and filters. So instead of drafting legislation that would serve victims by getting them better access to the resources they need, something like that. No, no, no – these pieces of legislation, such as SB18– not SB185 that’s the one that’s like Prop 60. But these pieces of legislation in the Human Trafficking Prevention Act, mandate that all devices sold within the states that passed these acts, have a mandatory block adult content, which can include sexual wellness websites, LGBT resources. The onus is on the consumer to opt out of that mandatory filter and pay a $20 fee that goes to the state. So this is touching all kinds of issues around free speech or on privacy, taxes – all of these things. They’re using the, again, Trojan horse of human trafficking to get bipartisan support and public support. But they’re not actually doing much to help victims from what I can tell. So it’s a very disingenuous type of attack. 

Siouxsie Q.: It’s coming at us from, like I said, essentially all 50 states. It comes in three steps of legislation, essentially. The first is to declare porn a public health crisis. So we’ve seen that go through in Florida and Virginia. I’m sorry, Utah, as well, of course. The second step is that mandatory block or filter, where you have to pay $20 to get the whole internet. When you buy a device, you have to pay a fee to access the entire internet. By paying that fee, you’re put on a list that implicates you as someone who wants access to child pornography and human trafficking. Fabulous, right? 

The third step, which is SB185, in Utah, is like Prop 60 on steroids. So SB185, says that anyone who knowingly shows adult content to a minor can then file charges against the person who distributed that content. So if someone takes a device and shows, and puts pornography on that device shows it to a minor, then the person who made that pornography is on the hook. The distributor of that content is then liable for lawsuits, even though they had nothing to do other than making the content and nothing to do with the activity, they are then on the hook. So that’s the three major steps and we’re seeing those in many states across the country. That’s our next big battle that we’re going to have to unite and fight against. Sorry, that was a lot of info. 

Dawn Serra: No, it’s just – the rage that I feel is… It makes me so angry because it’s like the war on drugs, where we’re creating all of these laws based on fear mongering and beliefs that have absolutely no foundation in reality or science. As you and I know, when we restrict access to information and people are driven into the shame closet, the behaviors become so much more dangerous for everyone involved. All of this makes me so angry and so disappointed that it’s so easy to dupe people, because they make it so hard for us to get information into the hands of the public. We don’t have comprehensive sex education that teaches media media literacy. We don’t have advertisements on Twitter or Facebook, or any social media where people can get any kind of sex education information or ethical porn access or anything like that. So getting the information out, the burden is so much on marginalized workers. I’m so glad that the Free Speech Coalition exists and that everyone was so mobilized with Prop 60 so that we can start mobilizing in new ways. 

I think one of the questions that I have for you around this is most of the people listening are not in either sex work or in the adult industry, so they’re consumers. They’ve heard me talk to lots of people about the importance of ethical consumption, being ethical consumers of sex work and of porn, and paying for your porn and paying your performers. So what can the informed consumer do around these issues and specifically this Human Trafficking Prevention Act that is hitting all 50 states? What can listeners do to actually have an impact to help us fight this?

Siouxsie Q.: Absolutely. First and foremost, I would say, support the work of the Free Speech Coalition, become a member – that’s how you’re going to have access to things like our newsletter, which is my job to go through and give policy updates about what we’re working on, what folks can do to get involved. We have all types of volunteer efforts. During Prop 60, we couldn’t have done what we did without the people who showed up to hand out brochures at Farmers’ Markets, to call people on the phone for hours and hours to mobilize support. We couldn’t have done it without those volunteers. So becoming a member of the Free Speech Coalition, contributing as you would contribute to the ACLU or other things that focus on the rights and human rights of people that you care about – if you care about people who work in the adult industry, and you want to support the rights, the most direct way to do that is through supporting the work of the Free Speech Coalition. So go to freespeechcoalition.com, sign up to be a member. It starts low if you’re a consumer, it’s five bucks a month. If you are a company in the adult industry, there’s all kinds of perks like corporate memberships, and that starts at 100 bucks a month. So check that out, get involved. That’s the best way to stay dialed into this, because we’re going to be leading the charge against this thing. We need all hands on deck. 

I would also say, if you want to dive in there and do a little bit of your own grassroots mobilization, go to human trafficking – I don’t want to give them credit or anything because humantraffickingprevention.com There’s a breakdown of all of the pieces of legislation, state by state. Start calling your state representative telling them you don’t support this, and you don’t want – speak their language. A lot of people don’t care about the rights of adult film workers like myself, but what they do care about is votes. So saying, “Hey, I don’t want the government telling me what parts of the internet I can access and making me pay a fee. I’ll just buy my computer out of state and you won’t get any of the tax revenue. How about that, sir?” Saying things like that, getting creative about how we attack this – talking about it with your friends, a lot of people don’t have any idea that this is happening. Talking about on Twitter, like, “Hey, did you know that there’s a piece of legislation in our state because I bet you $100 whatever state you’re in or theres a state next to it or you’re in a state that is going to be enacting some type of legislation like this.” Go on Facebook and say, “Hey, did you know that this is happening? Tell your state representative that you don’t want this.” Because while it’s exciting, with Proposition 60, we convince millions of people to vote no on this. And with these, we were really looking at hundreds or dozens, even some time, of people we have to convince to vote no on these things because it’s not a proposition – these are House bills and Senate bills. It’s easier in a way and more challenging in a way as well, because reaching those people, figuring out what they need to hear in order to change their vote is a little bit more difficult, but it’s totally possible, totally possible.

Dawn Serra: So if you don’t mind, I would love to read a little excerpt from your book, Truth, Justice, and the American Whore because I think it perfectly describes the fear that’s creating these bills and these attempts at legislation – I thought it was so so beautiful, and it was right at the end of the book. So if it’s okay, can I read it and we can roll around in a little bit? 

Siouxsie Q.: Sure, but I’m nervous.

Dawn Serra: It was so good. Oh, my gosh, okay. So here’s what it says: “This world has been built on the backs of women and men who survived by selling sex. We have inspired, fed, comforted, and cared for kings, congressmen, authors, painters, and revolutionaries. Yet, we have been relegated to the shadows and the back alleys, told that our powers are harmful, dangerous, and that they must be controlled. But the whores of this world are some of our best and brightest. We are the granddaughters of the witches they couldn’t burn. We have the uncanny ability to make men, both rich and poor, open their wallets and dole out bills, hand over fist, into a capitalist patriarchal society – that power is incredibly dangerous. Harnessing and wielding whore power has the potential to dismantle everything. That is why there are so many laws written to control sex workers. It’s because the powers that be are afraid of us, and they should be. We are magnificent. We are powerful, and I believe our time has finally come.”

Siouxsie Q.: Yeah! So real. I stand by those words really hard. Especially as we approach this very strange time in our history. I do believe our time has come and I do believe that our workforce, historically, has played such an important role in this world. I think someone was saying on Twitter the other day, the amount of nonprofit work that has been funded in some capacity by the adult industry, the number of political movements that have been funded indirectly or directly by adult work and sex work – you really start to dig in there and think about what those implications are. I don’t know, I think you’ll come to the same conclusion.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think one of the things that so many of us forget, too, or we just turn a blind eye to is people have been turning to sex workers for as long as capitalism has been around for the most part. And the same people who have found comfort and healing with sex work, have often turn around and then try to legislate against that because we live in such a sex negative culture. We are seeing an especially terrible time right now, and I have hope we will swing any other way, but we’re in a time where it’s being celebrated that we are turning our backs on the most marginalized. We are removing resources from the most marginalized and despite the power that sex workers have, they have historically been some of the most marginalized individuals in the world and people are terrified of the power of they wield. 

So I loved that you specifically named that fear. Because I see so much of that in all of these legal battles that we’re seeing – that people are trying to put a bow on it and make it seem like they’re trying to help sex workers or that they’re trying to help human trafficking victims. But what’s underneath it is this deep fear of sex and power and bodily autonomy, especially for women and trans folks, and people of color. It’s this fascinating, disgusting big mix of oppression and power all in the same place. Right?

Siouxsie Q.: Yeah. I mean, if you really push on and dig into the issues, like why do we criminalize people who sell sex? Why do we do that? What’s the deal with that? And this multitudes of ways and you dig in like, “Well, sex is magical and powerful, and it makes people do things. They’re very beholden to it in a way. It’s magic, it’s witchcraft in many ways. It’s not easily controlled.” So, trying to control it as much as possible in order to control the uncontrollable when we see that from intentions between witchcraft in the church. Who were witches that were burned? They were women who lived outside the box and had powers that people didn’t quite understand. So I don’t see that as different as so different from what we’re experiencing now. What are cam girls? They are women with magical powers that people don’t quite understand. So that’s why we see, I think, the types of attacks that we see, but I do think that is changing. I do think it’s coming around. 

Some pieces of legislation that we’re also working on at the Free Speech Coalition aside from this– We don’t always want to be on the defensive, right? We know the attacks are coming, they’re going to keep coming. They’ve been coming since the beginning of time. The Free Speech Coalition has been around for 25 years. We’ve been to the Supreme Court, we’ve won against John Ashcroft. We should be real tired by now. But Eric and I are new youngblood. We only both started early last year with the organization. There’s this long history of attacks and it’s not going to stop, probably. I mean, hopefully, eventually, but there’s always going to be people coming at us. It has been that way for so, so long. So we want to be sure that we’re also playing offense instead of just defense all the time, that’s how you win. 

Siouxsie Q.: There’s some amazing pieces of legislation, one here in California, around HIV decriminalization, decriminalizing people’s HIV status, so they’re decreasing the stigma so that they can get access to treatment and testing, and prevention methods. Also in Hawaii, there’s three pieces of decriminalization of sex work legislation that are on the books for– They won’t be decided until January of 2018, but that’s happening. They’re trying to decriminalize prostitution, which includes lap dances, for the record, in Hawaii. For some reason lap dances and prostitution are the exact same thing in Hawaii’s eyes. So this would decriminalize tons and tons of workers in Hawaii. So we’re hoping that that goes through HB1533, then there’s a couple other adjacent pieces of legislation around that that would help people who move prostitution convictions from their records in a more expedited fashion. 

There’s also a piece of legislation in New Hampshire, that is simply setting up a commission to study sex work and decriminalization efforts – just to study it, to see like, “Nobody panic. We’re just going to look.” 

Dawn Serra: “We’re just looking.”

Siouxsie Q.: You know that’s how everything works. It goes step by step. You can’t go in and expect to accomplish everything with one piece of legislation, so that’s why you see things like, “Establish a commission,” or conversely on our opponent’s side, “Establish, declare, porn in a public health crisis.” That’s the first step which lays the groundwork for the next pieces of things. So we can use that same strategy on our side as well. Let’s set up a commission just to look at what people say about not criminalizing the adult industry. Let’s just look at it. Then what’s going to be found there? Amnesty International and World Health Organization all say that decriminalizing the adult industry helps people and helps combat human trafficking. Did you not say you were trying to combat human trafficking? We have some thoughts. We’d love to share them with you. Guess what?

Dawn Serra: “We have some data that will show you just how to do that.”

Siouxsie Q.: It’s not all doom and gloom. Things like pleasure products restrictions. They’re in Alabama, Louisiana, and not anymore Georgia, as of just a month ago. It was still illegal, or there were different bans on what types of leather products you could buy in the state, that was criminalized. Recently, Georgia finally lifted those bands. So there is progress. I don’t want people to get too sad. Even though the attacks keep coming, like I said, we found that when we unite and we fight, we really do win these impossible battles. But we can totally do it and we’re gonna keep doing it.

Dawn Serra: I love that.

Siouxsie Q.: But we need your support!

Dawn Serra: Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. Everybody, I will have a link to the Free Speech Coalition on dawnserra.com/ep157 for this episode, including a link to the membership, sign up; so that all of us can make sure that we get the newsletters and we stay abreast of what’s happening in all the different states, and what’s being fought for, and what we need to fight against. So let’s all go there and throw some money at the people that are doing this very hard work.

Siouxsie Q.: Thanks, guys.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So I would love to shift to you. At the top of the episode, I shared with everyone that you had this wonderful weekly column with SF Weekly called The Real Whore Next Door and a whole bunch of those essays plus some of your other writing is in your book, Truth, Justice, and the American Whore. You chronicle so many of your own stories and experiences, and the journey that you’ve gone on as someone who’s moved through different elements of the sex industry. 

I know you took a break from porn while you were working on Prop 60. I was so excited to see that you recently got back into it and you did a shoot with Andre Shakti who we’ve had on the show and adore. One of the things you said is that porn is your favorite sex work. I would love it if you could tell us a little bit more about that. 

Siouxsie Q.: Oh, I would love to. So I took time off to fight Prop 60. I knew that if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have a career to return to. So it was all in for about six to eight months, I think. I recently got back in the game. I’ve shot three scenes this year, which I’m full time at the Free Speech Coalition. So realistically, I’m only going to be able to shoot 12 to maybe 20 movies a year which is fine. I get to be more selective about what I shoot moving forward. I shot a gangbang with kink.com, I kind of scrimmaged back end with Andre Shakti. She’s a good friend of mine. So we just shot some really basic girl-girl content, which exhausted me. I was so glad that I started easy because I’m not in shape yet. I’m not back. Having four orgasms in a day takes a toll on the body.

Dawn Serra: Amen.

Siouxsie Q.: Yeah, I’m back. I’m really excited to be there. I love making porn because I think I’ve said this before, but I’m a theater nerd by my upbringing. I was raised in a theater, both my parents are in the performing arts world. So that community really, really shaped me growing up. I feel like there’s a lot of parallels to that community in the porn world. I don’t know, porn stars, in my experience – there’s a lot of crossover with weird theater kids, theater nerds. And making an adult film doesn’t feel that dissimilar from hanging out backstage. Also the nature of adult film or at least filming the sex of it, even though it’s going on film, you have to go with the flow of the day. You have to get that shot. It only happens once. In the same way that live theater, you have to nail it on stage in front of everyone. 

The same way with sex, you can fake a money shot and there are all these other ways that you can add movie magic to to a porn shoot. But I like it because it feels a little bit like live performance. And that is where my heart lives. It’s live performance but sexy and there’s sex. When I was an artist – I got my degree in theater and I was always interested in the edgy, weird, sexy performance art. Of course, right? So if I wasn’t doing sex work or porn in some capacity, I would be making really awkward performance art that involved way too much sexuality. It’s like, “This girl needs to examine some things. I don’t want to go back to this.” So I’m glad I’m doing this instead. 

Dawn Serra: It’s really interesting. I was telling the listeners after I came back from erotic film school, all about it and we filmed Andre and James Darling that day. 

Siouxsie Q.: Nice. How did it go?

Dawn Serra: It was so fun. They were so incredible and so patient with all of us newbies who were struggling to get the camera just right and figure out where the lighting was, and they were so beautifully professional and patient with us. What fascinated me was – I’ve been to play parties and dungeons and things like that, and seeing all kinds of sex. But what fascinated me was to be in the room with Andre and James while they were having sex was not a new feeling for me, but what was new was what I observed In the room with the crew there and then performing; and then what translated on the camera, and how much more intimate it was when the camera took away all of the noise and it was just Andre and James there. It was incredible to see how these lived experiences get translated by the camera and tell a slightly different story. That hooked me immediately. I was like, “Oh my god.” It was beautiful and something that hadn’t really occurred to me before. It’s a space I’d like to be in a lot more, but it was such a fun experience.

I love knowing that you love doing this work, that makes me so happy because then we know when we see you performing that you’re like, “This job’s awesome!”

Siouxsie Q.: Exactly, exactly. Porn is really special. It’s capturing sex magic, right? I also really love – I have had the opportunity to do some live sex performances as well, which is really fun, but you don’t have what you just talked about – that intimacy of getting really close. Sex is generally a really intimate act. The strange thing about sex on film is that you’re playing to a different audience than if you’re just having sex with someone. If I’m having sex with you, like I’m looking at you and everything I do is for your view. But you and I are having sex for the camera, everything that we do is focused out, is cheated out, to a third party to tell a story. 

So that’s a very subtle difference in terms of performance, like, how is sex on film different from sex you have in your personal life? It’s like, well, the sex I have in my personal life is for a different audience, the same way that you and I are having a conversation right now. It’s probably a little bit different than a conversation you and I would just have over the phone because we know that no one’s going to be listening to it. We know that someone’s going to listen to this podcast. So we’re doing it a little differently.

Dawn Serra: Yes. I love that you put it that way. I think sometimes I struggle when I’m talking to people who are new to sex positivity, unethical pornography, and being ethical consumers of sex work to describe some of the subtle differences. I adore how you just put that because it’s so simple and clear. It makes total sense to even someone who’s really new to thinking about these things in a different way.

Siouxsie Q.: Yeah. I try to as much as I can. One of my favorite essays in the book is around thinking about other things that we pay for that are very intimate, that are not criminalized the way sex work is. I know Brazilian waxes. Come on, guys. I pay someone to do that every month. Really? This is okay. This is legal. Okay, just checking. When we think about, what is the actual action happening as opposed to what is our historical shame around the action happening? What work is being done as opposed to our puritanical nonsense about the work that’s being done? Really trying to parse that stuff out, I think, is crucial to our understanding.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think, too, people often assume that there’s this built-in shame around being any kind of sex worker. I mean, we have all these cultural stories that are so toxic about the types of people that are strippers, the types of people that are porn performers, and it’s this very one note, oversimplified, narrow view that casts the light across the entire industry. Part of that is showing, “No I don’t have shame about this. It’s something I actually enjoy and grow from, and have friends in the industry that I am in.” You write about your mom and the way that she talks about your work, and you have this really cute article about polyamory and pets. Your mom said something like cats and what you do or the reason the internet exists, even that subtle tiny little thing of saying like, “Hey, look. My mom knows what I do and talks about it.” Completely removes that shame, that puritanical values slant to this, and I love that so much.

Siouxsie Q.: Absolutely. Shout out to my parents. They’re the best in the world. I’m so obsessed with them every day. They’re amazing. They’re the folks who – “Hey, Mom. I just got back from college and going on tour with rock and roll bands. I’m going to move in with you for a second. Will you help me make a mermaid costume? I just feel like I need to perform as a mermaid on stage. By the way, I became a stripper. That’s cool, right? Love you.” Folks who put up with that are deserve all the gold medals, like, “Hey guys, I swear that me being a sex worker is going to result in something real cool and make me having some kind of office job and title someday. I promise.” They’re like, “Okay.” But they trusted me and here we are. But to that end about decreasing the stigma, sure there’s a lot of stigma on the people who make this content or participate in this industry. Sure. There’s also a huge stigma around people who consume it. 

So when we think about how listeners, for example, to the podcast, can help out with the cause of fighting for the rights of people who work in the adult industry, come out about your consumption of it. Come out as a consumer like, “I watch porn. It’s awesome. What sites do you subscribe to?” “I got a happy ending massage the other day. It was great.” Whatever. I find that we’re not talking about the ways in which we all consume sex in some capacity, like have you looked at some dirty photos on Tumblr? Have you watched a porn? Have you gone to a strip club? Have you gone to Hooters? Think about the ways in which you yourself consume sex and be open about those things in your community; that’s going to do a huge amount to dismantle the shame that we all live with around sex in this in this country and in this world, I think

Dawn Serra: I love that call to action. That’s something that’s so simple, and also so edgy for a lot of people who maybe don’t talk about sex very often in their lives – the way that you and I do. But even to admit that you went to a strip club with a bachelor party, or that, like you said, you went to Hooters or the sites that you subscribe to or that you flirted with your spouse using these super sexy Tumblr pics that you found. That’s a really low barrier to entry to actually reducing stigma and having a little bit of an activist approach. 

Siouxsie Q.: Even if you’re not totally comfortable talking about your own consumption, coming out as an ally around consumption or work is really important, like “Hey, dead hooker jokes are never funny. Let me tell you why. Because sex workers are disproportionately affected by violence and murder. So maybe you should think twice before you say that at the watercooler, Bob.” That kind of intervention and disruption of those narratives it’s really important for us

Dawn Serra: Totally agree. I can’t wait for everyone to listen and fist pump in the air.

Siouxsie Q.: The only times I think I wish that I wasn’t a sex worker is to be more emboldened in situations like that. I’m pretty good. I’m pretty good at Uber drivers or just random folks saying stupid stuff about the adult industry and combating it in a way that is non-combative and educating – a teaching moment. I’m pretty good at that. It’s actually my job. But sometimes when I’m out in the world, I’m still a sex worker at the end of the day. I feel it. I find that in my activism, even with Prop 60, I think that if I were to go back in time somehow, and do the Prop 60 campaigns start to finish again or even watch myself doing the Prop 60 campaign with everyone – I think I would see in myself, and then also with everyone who worked on the campaign, all these tiny ways in which we made choices that were affected by our own internalized shame around this stuff. I know that that’s true. 

So even as we’re fighting these battles, I think we’re all fighting these internal battles as well. So keeping in mind that we need our allies, we need the people who come at this a little bit differently and are able to be that fierce in that instance and be like, “Hey! Don’t talk about my friend like that.” We need that. Please do that.

Dawn Serra: It’s so moving and so real, and so approachable and easy for so many of us to do who aren’t at risk, who aren’t risking our bodily safety, and our livelihoods when we can use our voice and actually call those folks out. I love that. I was wondering– Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Siouxsie Q.: No, no. You go ahead, please, please. 

Dawn Serra: I was wondering if we should dive into a listener question or two.

Siouxsie Q.: That’s what I was wondering, too!

Dawn Serra: Oh my gosh, mind meld. I know that you have written at length in your column and in the book, and you talked about this in your life as being someone who is polyamorous and has multiple partners. So I have a couple of questions actually from people who are struggling in their poly quest and I thought maybe the two of us could roll around in them and see where we end up.

Siouxsie Q.: I would love that.

Dawn Serra: Okay, so this first one comes from someone named A. It says:

“Hi, Dawn. First, thank you for your show. I love it and I’ve learned so much. I’ve written to you before under a different name, but this time I have a question that I could really use your help with. I’m a cis woman in my mid 20s and I identify as polyamorous and bisexual. I have an amazing relationship with my primary partner who is a cis straight man in his late 40s. I also know now have an amazing secondary relationship with a man I met online, as well as a couple of occasional fuck buddies at varying degrees of distance. As an abuse survivor, it means the world to me to be surrounded by these wonderful people who love me and are kind and supportive to me. Unfortunately, my primary partner is struggling to find another partner of his own. He’s had a couple of false starts, but nothing lasting and it’s making him really sad. I’ve tried everything I can think of to help, including offering to step back from my own external relationships to make it easier on him. But he refuses this offer every time on the grounds that it wouldn’t be ethical and would cause bigger problems down the road. He supports my other relationships generally. But he’s really struggling with the reality of them at the moment, due to his understandable envy and not having something similar for himself. I don’t understand why this sweet, funny, smart, sexy man isn’t overrun with offers for dates. Surely other women must see in him what I do. So how do I help my partner find a partner? How do I support him in the meantime? How do I keep my own relationships? Going in a way that doesn’t damage my primary relationship or make me feel unbearably guilty?”

Siouxsie Q.: That’s a lot, but not uncommon, I would say. This is not a story that I haven’t heard before. I know that as, I think, a non-monogamous person, sometimes you can really feel like, “Oh god, no one has ever done this before. No one is having this problem. Why can’t I do this right?” It’s such a big leap to take that step and say, “Yeah, I’m not going to do monogamy, which is the general thing that is expected of me. But I’m going to think outside the box and do a non-traditional relationship structure.” It takes a lot of bravery and dealing with people’s ignorance puts you in the closet sometimes or requires you to come out of the closet, depending on what you choose to do. So I understand that it can feel daunting, but I want the person who this to understand that they are going through some super, super regular poly issues

Dawn Serra: Lots of people have been there, done that.

Siouxsie Q.: Exactly, exactly. I remember when I was first discovering are the realities of my polyamorous affiliation. I guess I was in college and I just read The Ethical Slut and my LGBT advisor person who was so lovely to me – I would sit there and cry in her office. She would say, “Sweetie, I promise you I was you. I understand what this feels like. But fast forward several years in your life, right now, the only people I know are polyamorous. Every person in my circle is non-monogamous.” I was like, “How could that be possible? You’re lying, you’re lying.” That’s absolutely my existence now, so it takes some time. I would say with this person – I mean, this may be a little crass but have you considered threesomes? Is that weird? Is that bad? 

Dawn Serra: No, not at all. 

Siouxsie Q.: You know what I mean? It’s like if your partner, if your honey is having trouble meeting folks which let’s say you’re a bisexual 20 something year old and you’re dating a cis straight 40 year old guy – shocking that you’re having more success getting partners than he is, shocking. Of course, you are, of course. That’s not wildly insane. So, how do you mitigate that? How do you meet your partner where they’re at? I would recommend being his wingman, going cruising together, putting up some ads as a couple – if you guys are into that, if y’all are into that. That’s one of them. What would you say, Dawn?

Dawn Serra: I really like your suggestion of threesomes. I think even to take that a step further – if that’s something the two of you are willing to do together – play parties and dungeons, and going out together to places where you can have sexual experiences with other people, and also be kind of supporting and nurturing that primary relationship at the same time. So that her partner feels like he’s having having an opportunity to actually experience other people and other situations, and other bodies, even if he doesn’t have a long term, committed secondary relationship right now – that at least opens the door up to new people, new friends, new connections that might lead them to dating and things like that.

Siouxsie Q.: Exactly. Especially because she says she identifies as bisexual, so if you guys can cruise for ladies together, I mean, that’s a fun thing to do with partners in my experience. It doesn’t work for everyone for sure. Also, never necessarily want to be that unicorn hunting cliché couple of, “Hi, girl we met at a party, would you like to have sex with my husband?” Maybe not lead with that – ethically cruising together and being transparent about where you guys are at like, “Hey, we’re a cute couple. I’m bisexual. My dance card is a little full right now – he’s open to having a more serious relationship. I would be down to do some threesomes.” What is everyone available for – that’s how I would approach it.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, I’m also wondering, I know this is super location dependent and that access to these things is very, very dependent on city and state. But if there are poly or non-monogamy meetups in your area or kink munches, where there’s an opportunity to even talk to people who are in similar situations. So even if it doesn’t lead to dating, it just feels less isolating for both of you to be able to share about those experiences. I also think you’re so right. I can’t tell you how many stories and articles I’ve read in various forums and places of – and I’m not saying this is their situation – but of a guy who comes and says, “Hey, girlfriend. I’ve been reading about this poly thing and I want to fuck lots of women. So let’s open it up.” Then he finds that as a cis straight man, in his 30s or 40s, he’s having a lot more trouble meeting partners, whereas his cis female partner is having lots of dating opportunities. I think that’s something you have to know that it might take a little bit more time, especially depending on where you’re at and how big the community is and how aware people are in your communities around non-monogamy and poly even being an option.

For some people, I think it can be a really, really slow start. But then I think once you start meeting people and connecting with people, you can have very transformative experiences but it sounds like he’s just having a little bit of a slower start to her, “Whoo! I made it and I found a partner!” Of course that feels terrible and lonely and left out. So I think community, playing together, and continuing to ask about his experience and his feelings to show that you’re invested in supporting him even when shit gets hard, because shits going to get hard for different reasons, I think is also going to build resilience and connection.

Siouxsie Q.: Absolutely. Also, I’m just going to say it, this is a great instance, if sex work is in the budget that could be a quick solve as well. If he’s not getting his sexual needs met. If that’s something that you all want to want to broach, having him engage in some type of sex work, not engaged, but consume some type of sex work via cam girls, porn, escorting, whatever. That could be a quick solve for this as well – just to get some some practice and get your legs around what it looks like to, “Okay, I’m going to go have this intimate experience with someone that’s not you, and then I’m going to come home and we’re going to move on with their lives and see how that feels.” To get that experience on his side, maybe consider seeing a sex worker, I would also say. 

If I can be a little bit of a jerk for a second, too, girl to girl, don’t let him whine too much about having a polyamorous bisexual, 24 year old girlfriend and not getting exactly what he needs right now because… I’m just going to say that. 

Dawn Serra: He has you and that’s amazing. 

Siouxsie Q.: Exactly. You’re like, “Oh, no. How can we help you get laid more? He’s fine.

Dawn Serra: Yeah.

Siouxsie Q.: Everything I said, also true, and a little bit of like, “Yeah, you’re fine.”

Dawn Serra: One other thought that I had, too, is if money is in the budget – because I love that you recommended sex work as an option for exploring new sexual experiences and people. I love that. There’s also more and more polyamory conferences happening. There’s one in Dallas in July, I think. There’s one in Philadelphia, there’s one that I’ve seen happen in Berkeley. There’s one in Europe called The Non-monogamy Conference. So that might also just be a really great place to meet movers and shakers, and people who are really invested in exploring and learning and growing in polyamory versus kind of those “I guess I could try it” folks that you’re going to meet on OkCupid, who might be lovely people but anytime you bring in a newbie who hasn’t done this before, there’s a new learning curve that you have to fold in. 

Siouxsie Q.: Yes, that is a huge component – if you guys are new with this, try to find folks who aren’t. That’s really good advice, I’d say too. There are vacations and retreats and stuff for non-monogamous couples that can edge towards the swinger scene, which may work for you guys. Swinging has been a great theme for people for generations now. So maybe taking, if you guys live in a small town or have a small community or there’s not a big poly community where you are, go on vacation together. Go on one of those cruises that has a BDSM dungeon in it or whatever. Get creative about making some intentional time and space to carve out and meet those goals. I would also maybe say.

Dawn Serra: I love that. To A who wrote in, I hope all of that is helpful and if nothing else, just gives you some nice juicy things to talk about your partner with and to roll around together and get creative, and see what you can make happen. I wish you the very best of luck. Thank you so much for writing in. 

So Siouxsie, I have one question for you. We are right at an hour and I want to respect your time. So I want to ask you, do you want to field one more question about crushes or should we wrap up?

Siouxsie Q.: I always want to talk about crushes. Let’s do one more question then I will get back to my work of making sure you also have porn in the world. 

Dawn Serra: Yay, okay. So we will talk about crushes and then Siouxsie will save porn. So Julia wrote in and it says:

“Dear dawn, I love the podcast. Thanks for all the amazing work you do. I’m hoping you can help me with a question about crushing. I’m in a long term monogamous relationship with an amazing woman. Our relationship is great, and I love her like crazy. Monogamy has always been a negotiable thing and we’re both open to talking about it if one of us wants to change that. My question is about whether or not I should tell my partner about my crush on a really good friend. It’s not necessarily that I want to date him or sleep with him. I’m not sure that would be a great idea for a variety of reasons. And right now I’m just enjoying the pleasure of crushing on someone. However, I’m very attracted to him both emotionally and physically. I wonder if it’s a mistake to keep my feelings from my partner.” 

“Despite the open invitation to talk about non-monogamy, I’m worried that if I tell my partner about my crush, she’ll be hurt, upset, or jealous. I’m sure our relationship would survive, but I’m afraid that if she has a bad reaction, it could negatively affect my friendship with this other person. What if she starts feeling jealous when we hang out? What if she wants me to stop hanging out with him entirely? He’s one of my closest friends. My partner is my top priority. But I don’t make good friends easily, and it’s really rare for me to become this close to someone. So does my partner need to know about crush feelings I’m not acting on or is this not ‘need to know’ information? I love my partner and I want to do right by her, but it would crush me to lose this friendship. I could really use some advice, Julia.”

Siouxsie Q.: Oh, Julia. I’m so glad we took this question, I’m so glad we took this question. I was you when I was crying in my LGBT student advisor’s office, having read The Ethical Slut. I was Julia. So this question definitely resonates with me. I always was interested in non-monogamy as soon as I started having relationships and intimacy with people in high school. I was sleeping with my girlfriends, and a boyfriend or whatever. I had crushes on rock stars, but I was trying to court and things like that. I’ve always been how I am. But I got to college and I had my first really serious relationship with a woman and then she wanted monogamy. She was from a small town. She only recently came out and had a much more traditional upbringing than I. She was an 18 year old cheerleader, I did what I had to do. 

So we dated for several years, when I was a sophomore in college. I met this person who would grow to be my playwriting partner. So we made a play called Fish Girl that did a run in New York a couple years ago, and will hopefully be doing a run in Los Angeles soon. But we met during, theater and we worked together and we had this very intimate connection around creation. For anyone who’s done creative collaboration or business collaboration with another person, it’s very, very intimate. It’s almost as hard to find a match there, as it is to find a match romantically. 

Siouxsie Q.: So when I found that match, when I met Shawn, I had such a crush on him. We were doing these things on stage together that were very intimate. We were kissing on stage as part of theater life. We were creating these things. And I was such a tizzy about it. I didn’t know what to do. I think I ended up telling my partner about it, because I was like, “Oh, I’m looking at the feelings. I guess this is what really potentially loving two people looks like.” He had a girlfriend too. I was not interested in having sex with him really. It wasn’t about that. But I came forward to my partner, because it felt like the right thing to do, especially since– I don’t think she and I were explicit about like, “Oh, maybe non-monogamy someday,” as Julia and her partner seemed to have been. 

However, my partner and I were pretty open sexually. We had a healthy, somewhat kinky sex life. So I brought it up one day, I remember sitting at the food court in the mall and I was like, “I want to talk to you about something. I think I have feelings for Shawn. I don’t want to cheat on you or you with him or anything. But I’m discovering these things and I want to be open with you about this crush that I’m having,” blah, blah, blah. And it went terribly. Terrible. We eventually broke up. We weren’t supposed to be together. She wanted a white picket fence and me to get pregnant as soon as possible. She’s an accountant now, we were not on the same path.

Siouxsie Q.: So looking back on that experience, I still stand by what I did. I think that telling your partner as soon as possible – I think talking about crushes is a really great way to ease into any type of non-monogamy be it swinging or full on polyamory. Talking about those feelings before anything else happens, I think, is really crucial. So I would say that definitely – especially if you’re already having this crush go forward. The longer you wait the more time I think your partner might see you as having deceived her, that you had these feelings and you guys would continue to hang out or be in plays together, whatever your own situation is – that when you finally tell her, she’s going to be like “Okay, so this whole time you’ve been hanging out with this person and harboring these crush feelings? Have you been acting on them?” That calls into all kinds of mistrust. 

I think telling your partner the sooner the better is the best call, but also be prepared that this could be the deal breaker. It’s all fine and good to talk about ethical non-monogamy and the possibilities of it, but this is the first step to make it real. If you can’t have a conversation about a crush, that goes well, nothing else is going to go well, in my experience.

Dawn Serra: I love what you said about we need to talk about these things before they happen, because so many of the emails in the questions that I get are “Something has happened and now I don’t know what to do.” I have certainly been in this place and I’m still in this place in so many places where it’s really hard to bring things up that feels scary or edgy, or really unsure around. But, if you were able to have this theoretical conversation around crushes before you ever had a crush, it would have laid this really beautiful foundation for then having the conversation. So to everybody listening, do that work now before you get to a place where you are similar to Julia.

I also think what Julia is talking about is something that’s very sweet and innocent and feels good. I think that being able to talk generally about crushes and even asking her partner like, “Hey, have you ever found yourself crushing on that cute barista at Starbucks or crushing on somebody at work?” Just ask about your partner’s experience as a way to open that conversation. I think you’re so right – the longer you go without saying something, the more it becomes a betrayal and a place where you don’t seem trustworthy. So the sooner you can say, “I rarely make friends and I’m super loving my time that I spend with this person. I get little butterflies and excitement. And I just love the energy that we have. I want to share that with you. I’d love to know if you’ve ever had that feeling about somebody else.” That’s a much different thing than, “I’ve been crushing on this person for two years and something’s changed. Now I want to do more.” It feels like holy shit. I’m not ready for that. We never discussed this.” Then things, I think ,potentially spin out of control a heck of a lot faster.

Siouxsie Q.: For sure, for sure. I will say this as well, having been in a lot of different kinds of relationships, I think that for me, and this may be true of other people, women-only relationships – my relationships I’ve had with other women have been so much more about the emotional intimacy than the physical intimacy. So even if you don’t want to have have sex with this person at all, maybe even, you still need to treat it as if you want to do emotional intimacy with this person. You are starting to, it sounds like. So being transparent about that with your partner, I think is really critical, especially I think, in lesbian relationships. Because, in my experience, my relationships with women have been largely about the emotional intimacy more than the physical intimacy. So honoring that and planning accordingly, I think, is really important. Something that I would like to do in the future in any case.

Dawn Serra: Life lessons.

Siouxsie Q.: I know I talk a lot about polyamory and non-monogamy, I’ve had a lot of experience. I still identify as the worst girlfriend in America on a regular basis. By no means do I have any of this truly concretely figured out. None of us do. We’re all learning.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, it makes me feel so much better that you say that too. Because there are some things I’m really good at with my husband, and there’s some things that I’m really terrible and feel super insecure around. So I always love it when I hear other people who share their stories and give advice say, “I’m still figuring this stuff out,” because it’s so permission granting to everybody listening and also to me. I love knowing, “Okay, I’m not the only one that’s still trying to figure this shit out and fucking it up regularly.”

Siouxsie Q.: I think that’s a really important thing to realize as you approach non-monogamy – that there’s no right way to do it, it’s not a savior– I definitely thought for a long time that just by being polyamorous meant that I never had to break up with anyone ever again. That’s definitely not true. I have been terrible about that in the past. I hate confrontation and so recognizing your own frailties, and how just like any monogamous relationship, like Dan Savage says, every polyamorous relationship you have will fail until one doesn’t or many don’t. Same rules.

Dawn Serra: Love that. Julia, thank you so much for writing to us about your crush. I hope that you find the language. I hope you find language that feels good and open and connecting. That it’s not something that turns into a point of pain and struggle, but even if it does, I hope that you two find a way through that. Thank you, Siouxsie, for all of your wisdom and your great advice. I can’t wait for everyone to hear it. 

Siouxsie Q.: I’m excited too. Thank you so much for asking me. It’s not every day that I get to do the advice thing, so I’m always excited when I get to. 

Dawn Serra: I would love it if you could share with everyone how they can stay in touch with you and follow along with all your adventures.

Siouxsie Q.: Absolutely. So like I said, go to freespeechcoalition.com, sign up, become a member, support our work. That way you can get our newsletter and find out how to take action and stay involved and also get updates on all the craziness and hopefulness that’s happening in the world. You can always also find me at thewhorecast.com – that’s where I put out a weekly podcast about the adult industry and the people who work within it. You can also read me every week at my column for the San Francisco weekly is The Whore Next Door. You can find me on Twitter @whorecast, @siouxsieqjames, and also the Free Speech Coalition @FSCArmy. Also on Instagram, @therealwhorenextdoor and I’m on Facebook as well. You can search Free Speech Coalition to find Facebook is probably the easiest.

Dawn Serra: Yay. I will have all of those links and more on the episode page on dawnserra.com/ep157, so that everyone can click and follow along on all the different platforms. I want to thank you so much for being here and doing this with me. It was so fun. 

Siouxsie Q.: So fun. Thank you so much, Dawn. This was a fabulous part of my day. I really appreciate you having me on.

Dawn Serra: Ah, that feels so good. To everybody who listened, thank you so much for tuning in. Be sure to head to dawnserra.com/ep157 so that you can follow along and get all those links. Also if you have any questions or stories you’d like to share, you can do that there as well. So until next week, I’m Dawn Serra. Bye.