Reid Mihalko is here this week and our conversation goes deep.

We start by geeking out over Reid’s latest adventures into anti-oppression work, learning about emotional labor as a cis white guy, and he even tears up over just how important it is for dudes to level up in these spaces, even if it’s just 10 or 20%.

Then, we dive into listener emails. First, Lauren writes in wanting to know if her recent interest in lesbian porn means her sexual orientation is changing. Is she no longer straight?

Jenny needs some advice around polyamory. Her and her partner have discussed it, but Jenny isn’t feeling like her needs are getting met and their communication isn’t great. Reid’s advice around poly is beautiful and gives all of us – in any relationship style – tons to think about.

Finally, Riffle needs help navigating a threesome with his fiance. Riffle wants their third to be a stranger, but Riffle’s partner wants it to be someone they Reid. Reid, certainly a threesome expert, lets his wisdom shine with some awesome advice.

Don’t forget to send in your sex confessions! I created a guidelines page for you. March & April’s theme will be messes!

Follow Sex Gets Real on Twitter and Facebook. It’s true. Oh! And Dawn is on Instagram.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

• Reid Mihalko, sex geek extraordinaire, talking about what he’s geeking out about these days as a sex educator.
• We talk about systemic oppression, racism, and how Reid is examining his white cis male privilege has been informed by culture and his lived experience, and also male fragility.
• Dawn talking about some rough lessons she experienced around her own racism.
• Why feeling inadequate and awkward and uncomfortable when you’re learning something new is absolutely OK and normal.
• Difficult conversations in relationship and getting the hang of those tough feelings, and what’s on the other side if you practice it enough.
• Huge questions Reid is asking about Sex Geek Summer Camp and how does he ensure marginalized folks aren’t putting in extra emotional labor for new educators who haven’t gotten the memo on emotional labor or oppression.
• Find out why Reid gets teary and what he thinks is so important that he gets choked up.
• How Reid uses the sports analogy of court awareness in basketball to teach consent and talk about rape culture to college athletes.
• There have been a lot of consent and abuse issues going on in the kink and sex positive communities over the past few years, and Reid touches on how there isn’t enough work in the tantra community to help trauma survivors.
• What Reid sees is missing from kink communities, poly communities, tantra communities, and where he’s still a white belt but starting to grow himself.
• Listener Lauren wrote in about sexual identity confusion. She’s started watching lesbian porn, so she’s feeling confused about her sexual orientation. Is she straight? Or something else?
• Reid’s Justin Beiber phase.
• Can you be a lesbian who doesn’t like eating pussy? Reid has strong words and stronger advice around this one.
• Jenny wrote in about polyamory and Reid, a poly master, gets to weigh in on how to nurture the primary relationship for folks new to poly. Jenny said her relationship isn’t really meeting her needs and their communication isn’t great, which sets off some red flags.
• Reid has amazing advice about communication relationship needs and how to do that super clearly.
• Listener Riffle wrote in about threesomes. He and his partner want to try threesomes, but Riffle and his partner like very different types of emotional connections in hookups. Check out Reid’s “Initiating Threesomes” teleclass.
• Reid has amazing advice for navigating safer sex and emotional safety in group sex. Plus, where do you find folks to have group sex with?

About Reid Mihalko

America’s favorite sex geek, Reid Mihalko of ReidAboutSex.com and Sex10xOnline.com helps adults and college students create more self-esteem, self-confidence and greater health and satisfaction in and out of the bedroom using an inspiring mixture of humor, keen insight, and comprehensive sexual health information.

Reid appeals to audiences of all orientations, backgrounds, ages and identities. He’s one of the only male sex and relationship experts touring the country today who can speak pragmatically to nearly all areas of sexual self-expression, intimacy, dating and relating. Reid’s mission is to give men and women new tools to transform their love lives  into fulfilling, satisfying, and sustainable expressions of self.

Stay in touch with Reid on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye! 

Welcome to this week’s episode of Sex Gets Real, listeners. This is Dawn Serra. The Explore More Summit just wrapped up yesterday. I am very tired, and also very grateful, and moved, and touched, and cracked wide open. I just want to say two quick things: First, so many of you have been emailing, and popping over to Patreon and supporting the show, which I appreciate. If you’re interested you can do as little as $1 a month at patreon.com/sgrpodcast. It helps me to keep doing all of this amazing work. I could not do it without your support and I want to keep doing this. I want to keep connecting with you. So please take a look. As you know, from all the sex educators I’ve had on the show, folks don’t value sex education. So even $1 is super helpful. 

Dawn Serra: Also, this week on the show is Reid Mihalko. We have a very rich discussion. The first half hour or so, we go very personal and really vulnerable and Reid talking about places where he personally is growing as a professional. Some of the big questions he’s grappling with around emotional labor as a cis white guy, anti-oppression work and learning from activists in his life. It’s really moving some of the stuff that he shares. Then we shift gears and jump into some listener questions. We talked all about threesomes and polyamory, and lesbian porn, and sexual orientation. So I am sure you’re going to love this. 

For those of you who aren’t familiar with Reid, he is America’s favorite sex geek. You can find him at reidaboutsex.com and sex10xonline.com. Reid helps adults and college students create more self-esteem, more confidence, and greater health and satisfaction in and out of the bedroom using an inspiring mix of humor, keen insight, and comprehensive sexual health information. Read appeals to audiences of all orientations, backgrounds, ages, and identities. He’s one of the only male sex and relationship experts touring the country today, who can speak pragmatically to nearly all areas of sexual self-expression, intimacy, dating, and relating. Reid’s mission is to give men and women new tools to transform their love lives into fulfilling, satisfying, and sustainable expressions of self. So prepare yourselves for this episode. It does run a little over an hour, but I just couldn’t bear to cut anything from it because it’s so rich for so many different ways. So I think there’s going to be a lot of stuff that appeals to a lot of you in here. Enjoy. Don’t forget to send in your confessions. Again, March and April’s theme is messes. So if you have anything from physical messes to emotional messes that has to do with sex and relationships, and pleasure, sent those in. Details are at dawnserra.com/ep153. Here we go. 

Dawn Serra: Welcome to the show, Reid. I’m so happy to have you here finally.

Reid Mihalko: Yay!

Dawn Serra: Yay, you’re here. 

Reid Mihalko: I’m super excited and it’s fun to get nerdy with you. So yeah, let’s do it.

Dawn Serra: Let’s do it. So I want to know, what are some of the things that you’ve been learning about or geeking out about lately? What’s turning your brain on?

Reid Mihalko: Oh, my goodness. I consider myself as an educator. I’m a sex geek. I don’t identify as an activist,although a lot of my activist friends are like, “No, you’re kind of an activist.” So the things that I’m wrestling with, I just feel like I’m a bad activist. A lot of the big stuff for me that I’ve been wrestling on for the last couple of years and trying to get really ingrained, and get better and better at, and just have more savvy is dynamics; like what I would consider activist kind of things around systemic oppression and racism, understanding for myself as a cisgendered, white guy, who’s also six foot tall and has a couple of black belts– Understanding how my worldview has been informed, one, by culture but also that my world, my lived experiences is vastly different than some of my friends and much of the world. 

Also, wrestling in those circles, things are called male fragility or white fragility, the emotional responses that a person has, when you start deconstructing some of this stuff as a white person. But again, there’s lots of different versions of fragility, and sex and relationships like if you realize that your partner is kinky and you’re in not then there can be all this, like– it’s not the same, but your emotional responses to things that aren’t necessarily you or that you identify with. So, I’ve been going down the rabbit hole on that a lot. Also, at the time of this recording, we just had the elections and the inauguration for now President Trump, and that is… I got really rocked by that. And just trying to understand, as somebody who’s not very political or politically-minded, how do I feel more effective and have more agency around helping make change? So all that falls in the swimming pool of activism. I just feel like I have really poorly developed skill sets in those areas.

Reid Mihalko: As a sex educator in a world where Planned Parenthood is being attacked and being defunded and stuff like that. This is now, I mean, it’s always been there for me to empower myself and be able to take more action in. But I feel like oh my god, now more than ever, I need to get good at this. I need to help without it being like a white savior kind of thing or a good person kind of thing. So that’s the stuff that I’ve been wrestling with. I’ve been blessed with some amazing educators who are really coordinated and savvy at this stuff, and have been really patient and generous with me, in pointing me to better resources and letting me bend their ear when I need some support.

Dawn Serra: That’s really awesome and, also, it’s hard work. It’s really hard work to confront our ideas about the world and our experiences, and the privilege that each of us have; and find ways to be better at lifting up marginalized voices and holding space for those really, really uncomfortable feelings. I remember a couple of years ago, I joined a Facebook group for femmes, that was an anti-oppression group. 

At the time, it felt super super threatening to me that they were all about centering the voices of people of color. I remember it felt oppressive to me to be in that space, and it took me a lot of time of feeling really uncomfortable and observing before I started really realizing the importance of that, and how radical it is. Now it feels a lot more comfortable for me to be at events and spaces, where they center marginalized voices and where it’s maybe not my time to take up space. But it took a number of years for me to start feeling more comfortable with that. So even just being aware that that’s something you want to work on and being able to sit in that discomfort and uncertainty is really powerful.

Reid Mihalko: Yeah, yeah. Again, for people that are listening, I’m just going to say, this is not easy work and I’m going to – the analogy being that getting good at anything, especially complex stuff, is going to be challenging and is going to kick up some of your fears that might be new to you. But certainly having fears and feeling inadequate when you’re trying to get good at something new, that’s not unique – that’s a human trait, I believe. Your unique insecurities and maybe the emotions that come up. Those might be unique to you, specifically, but what you’re going through – the bigger picture thing, so many of us, as human beings go through similar things. And if you’re going to start deconstructing things like privilege and systemic oppression, and you’re going to be challenged hard. 

Similarly, if you’re going to start actually trying to have difficult conversations, deep, difficult conversations in your relationships, that’s going to be challenging. That’s going to kick up a lot of feels. But the good thing is once you start to get the hang of being able to be with your feelings, and on a good day, take baby steps, on a bad day be able to pause and take care of yourself. On a really bad day, you’re just backsliding, I just want to acknowledge people, because what I think what this conversation is going to touch on is some stuff that is going to– You’re going to get all excited and pumped up, and we’re going to get you all inspired and you’re going to go try it and you’re going to be like, “Fuck, I’m going to get my ass handed to me.” That is progress, that’s a good thing. I’ll speak for myself and I really have to say thank you to the people that were patient with me when I didn’t know any better, when I was asking people questions out of naivete and unintentionally asking them to do emotional support and emotional labor for me. For those of you who are like, “What does that mean?” Look up, google it. 

Reid Mihalko: I’m going to do you a favor right now. I’m going to tell you, hit pause on the podcast and go google emotional labor, and take a look at some of the answers. But I didn’t know these things and so I would kind of, with my enthusiasm and my golden retriever on espresso way, and unexamined white male privilege, I would just ask people, “Hey, could you do all the work for me right now and get me caught up on this?” And understanding now like, “Oh my gosh, how generous and how kind people were.” Not name drop, but to acknowledge some people – Ignacio Rivera is one of the hugest, kindest people I know from me and my journey, and the beginning of this journey because I also think it’s never going to end. Ignacio Rivera, Marcia Bachinczynski, Tatiana Brown, and now it’s going to get weird because I’m going to forget all the other people. There is some badass people, people who just saw that I really, really cared and was clumsy as fuck. And were kind and patient with me as I started to get the hang of this.

As you know, Dawn, with Sex Geek Summer Camp, which is my my five-day business retreat for sex educators, I’m just getting better at business stuff. As that community is growing and more and more people feel safe to show up, I’m having to wrestle in a certain way. I’m going through a learning curve on how to help design the community, so that there’s a healthy balance of – you’ve got all the varsity upperclassmen who are “woke”, who’ve gotten the memo and they’re getting pretty savvy and coordinated, or they have their black belts in navigating in a lot of things around depression and inclusivity, and race. Not that anyone’s ever perfect, but there’s some people who are highly literate and articulate. 

Reid Mihalko: Camp also brings people in who haven’t read any of the memos. So I’m having the challenge of trying to come up with and crowdsource a little bit some guidelines for the community. So that people can come to Camp and just relax, and they don’t have to do emotional labor, but we’re also make Camp a place where people who don’t know what emotional labor is. We can get them up to speed in a way that’s low impact on the group and has people feel seen and welcome, and not necessarily made wrong. I’m trying to nerd out on community guidelines and things, and how do we make Camp a place where you can let your hair down but also expect a certain amount of freshmen who don’t know where the cafeteria is. This is me being more funny than actually comparing systemic oppression to a college campus. But again, it’s tricky and there’s fears of mine that I’m going to do it wrong and I’m going to fuck it all up. And that’s a lot of my family stuff. Those are the fears I have and my mom’s voice yelling in my head. But at the same time, it’s not the end of the world. But wouldn’t it be nice if we could get this designed better so that we could all be growing and relaxing at the same time? 

Camp traditionally has drawn a lot of kick ass feminists who are so excited, of all genders to be like, “Yay!” And you get this one clueless white dude, who means well, but it’s clunky as fuck. Everybody’s like, “Jesus, no fucking clue.” He’s like, “What do you mean by that?” He’s like, “I’m not going to do your emotional labor.” He’s like, “What do you mean by that?” I’m like, “Okay, I gotta figure this one out.” How can we make Camp helpful for everybody and not make it the responsibility of the upperclassmen? So, make sure the freshmen know where everything is. So that’s what I’m dealing with these days. How are you? 

Dawn Serra: I love it! That’s all such good stuff and so relevant. I mean, especially in the current political climate, it’s a wonderfully radical to be challenging yourself and asking those questions, and how can we reduce emotional labor for marginalized folks, and at the same time make space for people who may not know what that is and that’s going to be some varsity-level organizational work for you, Reid, to make that happen. But I’m confident that you can.

Reid Mihalko: Again, for me, I’m doing a lot of research and geeking out and with some amazing community guidelines. I invite everybody to go to Wis Con, it’s the Wisconsin Women’s Science-Fiction Conference. Their guidelines and community standards and stuff – this organization is amazing. Alison Moon is my primary partner who has written many, many books. Her latest is Girl Sex 101, which is available at girlsex101.com. She has gone to Wis Con and is like, “This is one of the best run conferences around inclusivity.” The protocols that they’ve developed over decades, because this conference has been around for a while. Their community standards and how they handle complaints and things – it’s amazing and I was like, “Oh, my lord!” 

So I’ve been reading a lot of community guidelines to see one, so I don’t have to reinvent the wheel and I’m smart enough now to know that, yes, as a in their 40s year old white guy, I’m going to come up with a perfect solution – that’s automatically suspect. But it’s like, “Oh, there are people way smarter than me who’ve been around way longer than me, who’ve made all the mistakes, and probably have figured out some really useful things.” Again, this is going to be my message for the listeners who are maybe starting their journey on deconstructing colonialism and trying to figure out race, and trying to figure out gender. Maybe not for themselves, but why is it important to share my pronouns when I open up a workshop if you’re a workshop leader? These are all things– Again, I’m not perfect. I’m so not perfect at so much at this. But even, and I’ll just talk to the white people and I’ll specifically talk to the white men who are listening to the podcast or even just the men, however you identify around and whatnot – even just getting 10-20% better at this is fucking huge. And you might not always get appreciated for it. You’re not always going to get your cookie, but that you’re even trying… I’m getting all teary eyed now.

Reid Mihalko: It’s just so fucking important and it’s not easy. Again, the really worthwhile things in life are not often easy. But things get easier, and it will be challenging, and it will take courage, and you will feel angry. All I’m saying as a cisgendered white man, is if you’re feeling that, if you’re feeling angry once you start to understand privilege and just the fact that, what some people think as a good looking guy, but that I’m a white guy standing up in front of the room. People assume I know what I’m talking about. They just give me a certain kind of status that– Some of my friends who are way fucking smarter than me, way smarter, they just won’t be taken seriously in the same way. So you’re going to have feelings come up, but understand that if you’re feeling put out and disregarded, try to imagine what that must feel like for somebody who is not white or somebody who is not being taken seriously because they’re a woman or not seen as a vibrant sexual human being because they walk with a cane or whatever. There’s so many things that we could list and that we’re never going to be perfect at this. But that you try is so important. 

When I’m talking to college campuses, especially when I’m talking to athletes on college campuses, about rape culture and preventing sexual assault, the analogy I use is in sports is called court awareness. The idea that if you’re a basketball player, for example, and you know where all of your fellow players and the opponents are on the court when you’re dribbling down the basketball court – knowing where everyone is, that kind of awareness, makes you a better ballplayer. Michael Jordan could pull off these crazy behind the back passes and you’re like, “How did he even know his teammate was there?” Because he had court awareness. So when I’m talking to men on college campuses, I’m like, “If you think about deconstructing these aspects of culture and understanding sexism and understanding consent, and consent culture and rape culture, you have more court awareness and you start to be able to see things that other people on the court cannot see.” You just become a better ballplayer, you become a better human being, to use the analogy. 

Reid Mihalko: Developing cultural court awareness is hard. What you get out of it as a human being, I’m just going to tell you to trust me if you’ll trust me, it’s worth it. And, if you want to actually help try to make the world a better place, I think this is one of those things you need to start paying attention to. Again, it’s not going to win you a bunch of awards. Not everybody’s going to come up to you, the joke for people who don’t know the joke, is you get your cookie. It’s like, “Look, I’m a white person who’s not being racist. Where’s my cookie?” You’re not going to get your cookies from everybody. Come talk to me. I’ll be like, “Here’s your verbal cookie. Good job. Now, get back on the court and make the world a better place, because our work is not done.” 

I don’t know – I feel conflicted about a lot of– I’m having a lot of feels. I already have normal human being insecurities about doing a good job and wanting to help. So when is my wanting to help useful and when is it me trying to be the white savior complex, who also is a comic book nerd, has a superman complex like “I’m perfect for needing to learn the lesson.” Reid, shut the fuck up and let other people talk because you don’t know what you’re talking about. And that’s been huge for me to listen more rather than rush in and fix it mode, and think I actually know what the situation requires.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. The listening part is so important. One of the things I think that’s been really important for me is realizing that while I do know a lot and I’ve learned a lot, I am in no way I’m an expert and the people from all the marginalized communities are always going to know more than me because they have the lived experiences. And also giving myself permission to like mess up. 

I just recently interviewed Maria Karimji who is a female genital mutilation survivor. In the interview, I felt like there were a couple of points when I asked questions that were a little insensitive, and giving myself permission to have made those mistakes – that’s me learning. The fact that I recognize that I could have asked better questions, and she was so graceful and generous in responding to the questions. It’s hard to grow and realize when you mess up, and also not totally beat the shit out of yourself over it and get hung up on it. Because then you’re not moving forward either.

Reid Mihalko: Yeah. Can we jump – this is tangentially a topic but I think the emotional pieces is there too. But I’m noticing, I could be completely wrong and probably often am, and I don’t know if people come and tell me how accurate is my information? But in the kink and sex geek world, there’s been the last couple of years, a lot of consent stuff and abuse stuff going on, – some with peers and some with other communities where people feel safe to reach out to me for my advice. As somebody who’s very promiscuous and sleeps with a lot of people, and knock on wood, I seem to be leaving people feeling better about themselves in our experiences than and worse. I’m knocking on wood right now, because what I’ve noticed as somebody who has done work with people who survived certain kinds of abuse growing up, physical, emotional stuff, but one of the things when I’m talking to people in the Tantra Community who do Tantra for a living… 

One of the things that Tantra is sorely deficient in is people teaching, Tantra teachers and hands-on-hands-in practitioners, how to work with trauma survivors. And I have a lot of experience with it, but I also, you know, would not say that I’m an expert in these things. I’ve had some people who are experts in these things, spend some amazing time with me having brain sex and talking about different concepts, and helping people through trauma and re-anchoring like somatic experiences and things like that. But in the Tantra community, there’s not a lot of people talking about those things. There’s a little bit of denial, not everywhere, I don’t know every Tantra teacher on the planet. But, there’s a lot of people who just don’t– I have had no complaints so everything’s fine. And what I need to lead to remind them is that you have no complaints doesn’t mean everything’s perfect. What it means is that you’re not hearing somebody or if you’re working with trauma survivors, there’s a lot of times people don’t know how to speak up when something goes sideways for them. 

When I do mentoring and whatnot, coaching for Tantra practitioners, I’m like, “So here’s what I’ve noticed…” If something weird or sideways happens, let’s assume everybody’s intentions are good. You don’t mean to – you’re not being slimy and creepy and just sloppy. But let’s say something happens and somebody couldn’t speak up in the moment, because they’ve had their agency and their voice taken away; what I’ve noticed is it’s at least 18 months to two years, if not four years, for people, if they continue on their path to their healing, will find their voice. And then speak up. 

Reid Mihalko: So as a Tantra practitioner, I’m just going to let you know that in the same way, this is a bad analogy, but it’s one it’s in my head right now – You’re supposed to save your tax receipts for seven years in case you get audited, I’m just going to let you know that the work you’re doing today, if no one complains four to five years from now, you can then start to think that you probably did the right thing. But human beings don’t think like that. Then what happens is when somebody does finally find their voice and speaks up, and finds their voice and can bring the complaint to the actual practitioner, almost inevitably because there is no training, the practitioner says, “Why didn’t you speak up when it happened?” Which is indicative of you don’t understand the concept. What you need to do is when anybody comes to you with a complaint and, I think this is good advice for just business owners in general and even for interpersonal relationships, when somebody comes to you with a complaint, your immediate knee-jerk response, please, please, please train yourself to do this is, “Thank you so much for bringing this to me. Please, please tell me more.” Because that is not the response most abuse survivors got when they’ve spoken up about anything.

So when I’m teaching people in the Tantra world, I’m like, “So this is your response. ‘Thank you so much for bringing this to me. Please tell me more.’” That act alone shifts what’s possible around the healing and that it’s not a turnaround time situation. People will speak up when they can and it might take a while. And where all of this stuff is – another area that I’ve been geeking out on and trying to marinate in is what’s missing in our sex geek communities where there’s victim-centered approaches to supporting folks around consent violations and things like that, and abuse. What are the things that we’re missing as a community that we can be putting in,front loading, that’s going to help everybody? So I haven’t gotten super far into this yet, but the restorative justice communities and transformational justice, because there’s a distinction and I’m still trying to figure out if I understand the distinction. I’m like a white belt, maybe I have a green stripe in this. There are some people who have been doing some heavy lifting and geeking out, and field testing approaches that a lot of kink communities don’t have yet, a lot of poly communities don’t have yet, play party communities – whether it’s swinger, poly, queer, kink – they don’t have yet. 

Reid Mihalko: So again, I’m trying – I know well enough to, one, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. It’s not the best approach. It’s not the most effective and economical use of energies. And the technologies and the approaches that are already out there aren’t widespread yet. So that’s another area that I’ve been talking shop with you and thinking that anyone’s who’s listening, this might be interesting. The communities around play parties and stuff like that – play parties are not going to go away. If anything, they’re going to become more and more pervasive. What can we do as community leaders or enthusiasts of play party space, or even hookup space, what are the tools and techniques we can bring in? So that the communities as a whole are healthier and able to handle or– not “handle” like things need to be air quotes handled, but we can respond in more empowering ways for everybody when there’s a mishap, or where somebody gets into a community who is malicious and mal-intended versus just clumsy. 

That’s what’s been so interesting in restorative and transformational justice approaches is some people without better approaches, all you have is you banish somebody from your community, which just sends them to another community. So I’m really trying to inform myself on these things, so that I can actually have intelligent conversations with people who are experts at this, rather than come to them like some bad kung fu movie and be like, “Master, teach me everything.” Which is so annoying to the master.

Dawn Serra: “Teach me all the things so I don’t have to do that work.”

Reid Mihalko: Yeah. I want to see the kung fu – the black belt theater movie where the master just goes, “Google fucking exists. Come back when you’re ready.” When the student is ready Google fucking exists – somebody put that on a t-shirt and send it to me, please.

Dawn Serra: Those are such rich things to be thinking about and rolling around in. Would you like to shake things up and help me feel some listener questions?

Reid Mihalko: Yes, listener questions. Yay.

Dawn Serra: Let’s do it. So we’re going to go from restorative justice and racial justice, and inclusivity and trauma to all kinds of questions about threesomes and poly and sexual identity. So I have this question from Lauren and the subject line is “Sexual Identity Confusion.” Here’s her message, it says: 

“Hi, I wanted to let you know how beneficial your show has been to my sex life. I feel so much more comfortable talking about sex and being more open to sexual experiences, so thank you. I’m contacting you today because I’m feeling confused in regard to my sexual identity. In the past six months, I started watching porn. After this, I realized that I really liked watching lesbian sex. I especially liked watching girls eat each other out. I still watched some straight people having sex, but I tend to gravitate towards the lesbian scenes or three some sex that are FFM. I consider myself a straight 24 year old female, and I have not had many lesbian experiences. I have a history of making out with other women while drunk and I’ve been fingered by a female before. But now I’m confused regarding my sexual orientation because of how much I’m turned on by watching lesbian sex, and fantasizing about having sex with other women. I know sexuality can be somewhat fluid. But can you please help me figure this out? I’m so confused. Thank you so much.”

Reid Mihalko: Yay, Laura, that’s great. You have thoughtful listeners who write in well. We all wish for great questions like that. So my off the cuff podcast answer on this kind of thing is, the first thing is understanding that what turns you on, is whatever turns you on. Then also, I think people get worried because they find something that’s new and erotic for them, then they’re like, “Oh, my goodness, what does this mean?” Because our brain thinks in a forever mode, right? It’s like, “Oh, my goodness, if this is turning me on now, I’m going to be this way forever.” It’s a little bit like when you find that new song or when people used to listen to entire albums, back when there were things like albums and not just iTunes singles, but you find that song and you just want it on repeat all the time. That’s me and I drive Allison and my roommates crazy because they were not very fond of my Justin Bieber phase. I’ll just put it at that which was followed directly by Katy Perry. The coup de grace, whatever the French phrases that I just butchered that means the killing blow, was Bieber, Katy Perry, and then Timberlake and then they were done.

Dawn Serra: They’re like, “That’s it. Get out.”

Reid Mihalko: I’m telling you, that was at least seven months of me listening to each one of those people over and over and over again. It just made me happy and I know that about myself. But I know that at some point, it’s going to shift. So, if you’re worried that this thing that’s turning you on, you’re stuck with it forever, understand that your tastes and whatnot, your predilections, might shift. You might always be fond of lesbian porn, but maybe two years from now you’ll be into spanking. Who knows, right? We can’t predict those things. Because, what is our turn on and what drives and fuels our fantasies, those things are unpredictable, which, if uncertainty freaks you out, you will be freaked out. But if uncertainty is erotic and a turn on and exciting, and means you’re alive, then guess what? You will be excited and alive. Not putting judgment on what you’re turned on by and understanding what turns you on doesn’t mean that you are that. That’s not your orientation. 

There are plenty of people who will fantasize about whatever – being kidnapped or abducted – who actually do not want to actually be abducted. Just because you’re getting turned down by lesbian porn does not mean you are a lesbian or that you will turn into a lesbian. To borrow the phrase from Dan Savage, “You’re not going to catch the gay.” So understanding the nuances of gender versus sexual orientation versus what’s erotic. I have a lot of friends who are lesbians, who can’t get enough of the muff, and the porn that they watches is gay porn because guys fucking each other turns them on.

Reid Mihalko: So I think understanding that most people have a very rudimentary understanding, because culture basically gives us a very rudimentary understanding, of the nuances of sexuality and orientation and turn on and fantasy. And to make it reductive and simplistic, “I have discovered lesbian porn and this is what I want to get off to. I enjoy the endorphins and the erotic charge of this. So, naturally, my brain wants to keep revisiting it.” Just like I kept revisiting my Justin Bieber songs. I’ve now made a comparison with Justin Bieber and lesbian porn, but take a look at him when he was early Justin Bieber. You judge whether he looks like a baby dyke or not. 

Dawn Serra: I totally agree. I think one of the other things, too, that we can give ourselves permission around when it comes to our sexual identity is we don’t have to label it. We don’t have to. I mean, it’s something that we can sit with and be unsure of, and try on and play with. And that can certainly change. I mean, I know, I went from being very straight to very lesbian to then very queer. I’ve had different sexual identities as I’ve gained different experiences, and partnered with different types of people in different types of bodies. So I think that there’s something really beautiful and being able to say, “I’m not really sure. Right now I identify as straight but that could change.” That gives you so much more flexibility, Lauren, in being able to give yourself permission that if down the road, you have an opportunity to engage in some delicious lesbian sex, maybe you’ll love it and maybe you won’t. So if you’re not tying yourself to a certain label, it gives you more flexibility to be able to actually have your lived experiences instead of trying to force yourself to like something or to force yourself to not like something. 

Reid Mihalko: Absolutely. This idea, especially in the queer world, that am I queer enough? Being a good queer, just like being a good straight person like, “Oh my goodness, I’m a dude who explored and sucked dick in college. Does that mean I’m not straight anymore?” I’m a big fan of– Again, these might be big reductive concepts, but the first thing is, you’re allowed to like what you’re like, and not like what you don’t like. You’re not a bad lesbian if you don’t like eating pussy. Now somebody might say, “You’re a bad lesbian.” Please tell them that Reid Mihalko said “Suck it.” Because you’re allowed to identify however you want. You can be a lesbian and like dick every once in a while or all the time. I’m not going to judge. My big questions are, are you happy? Are you taking these tools that are being talked about, on your podcast and in other realms, are you taking these tools and building the life that you want? Or are you building a box to beat yourself up in because of standards the culture is giving us that are bullshit? 

You’re allowed to like what you like and not like what you don’t like, doesn’t mean you’re broken or unevolved if there’s something you don’t like to do sexually. Because our overachieving this in the bedroom has seeped in, in American culture, into the bedrooms like if you’re not squirting across the room and knocking over a lamp or if your partner can’t do chin ups on your cock ‘cause erections hard– It’s all weird. Let it go, folks. Can we just reclaim mediocre sex for once? 

Reid Mihalko: You’re allowed to like what you like and not like what you don’t like, but then also you’re allowed to identify however you want. Other people might have a problem with it and I think there might be some – you can take that advice around identifying however you want and go a little bit too far. I’m a cisgendered white guy, if I identified as a person of color, that might be problematic. But you could also get really informed about these kind of nuances and be able to have an articulate discussion with people who disagree with you, but who are willing to have the conversation. I mean, I’d love to hear me back that up. But, you’re allowed to let everybody know have their opinion and be like, “No, that’s not okay.” or, “You’re wrong.” But at the same time, at the end of the day, you have to live with you. Go be you. Ideally date your species, like hang out with and surround yourself, not in an echo chamber, but with people who love you for who you are. So those would be my three big bits of advice. Again, your mileage may vary, take what’s useful that comes out of my mouth and use it. The other stuff chuck it because my advice isn’t for everybody.

Dawn Serra: I think that’s wonderful advice for Lauren. I think what you offered of, enjoy that you enjoy lesbian porn, and feel comfortable labeling yourself with what feels like it fits. Also, give yourself permission to change your mind and change that label. I think that you’re going to be a lot better off than if you try to say, “I’m a lesbian now,” and then don’t allow yourself the opportunity to have different types of experiences. Okay, thank you so much for listening and writing in, Lauren, with your super thoughtful question. 

I have a different question from someone named Jenny, and the subject line is “Polyamory”. So here’s the question. It says: “First, I love the show. I’ve been bingeing eight hours worth every day at work to get caught up. I’ve heard you talk about poly in the sense of how to get started, dealing with jealousy, and different types of poly. But what about the main relationship? My gal and I have been talking about poly since before we became a couple, which is on and off for over a year and a half now. I’m open to it. But my main concern is keeping our relationship healthy and loving. As of right now, I don’t feel my needs or wants are being met, and I wish our communication was better. I’ve tried talking with her and will continue because us is important to me. So thank you so much for your time and for any advice that you have. Lonely In Love.”

Reid Mihalko: My brain was going in so many different directions because I think that that’s a very deep question. I’m embarrassed now and feel free to edit this out, but also feel free to keep it in. Could you just repeat succinctly the actual question in a sentence because I literally went in eight different directions at once.

Dawn Serra: It’s totally okay. There’s a lot in this very short email. Basically, Lonely in Love wants to know, how do you keep your primary relationship healthy and loving in a poly situation? I think an important add-on is that she doesn’t currently feel like her needs or wants are being met and they don’t communicate very well. So she’s scared about poly being an option.

Reid Mihalko: Great. Thank you so much for that. 

Dawn Serra: You’re so welcome.

Reid Mihalko: So here’s a couple of things to – the way that I would like to answer this like for spinning plates, I’m going to put a couple of plates on the sticks and we’re going to spin them all at the same time. So the first plate is, if you’re not getting your needs met, the first thing to start looking at for yourself is what are those needs? Can you write them down and can you put each need on a post-it note? This is a little trick that I don’t think I came up with this, I think somebody else came up with this, but I’ll take credit for it because I can’t remember who this was. But if somebody’s like, “Reid, I gave you that.” Or somebody says, “I taught Reid Mihalko the post-it note thing.” Believe them because it wasn’t me then. But the idea is in relationships, if what you need to communicate, you can’t fit on a post-it note, it’s not simplified and it’s not at its essence yet. Because in communicating in your relationships, understand that you in your head, for the most part, make way more sense to yourself than to your partner who hasn’t heard yet that your needs aren’t being met. 

So, one, can you start figuring out what those needs actually are? Can you then communicate them succinctly in a sentence or two? A good test is the post-it note test, can you fit it on a post-it note? Because, one, if you don’t have clarity, and you can’t be clear, it’s going to be really hard for your partner or even your friend or your co-worker, because this is about communication, to be able to understand what you’re saying. If you are taking the time with them to flesh it out, and if that’s not their processing style, they will probably start getting caught up in their own head about what they did “wrong”. Then you’re pushing clarity and connection further apart. So I usually recommend, figure out what your needs are in the situation, then can you communicate them clearly? 

Reid Mihalko: Once you figure that, that’s one plate, we’re spinning that plate. It’s not going to fall off anytime soon. The next plate is do you have a relationship where you two can have a conversation that’s that kind of depth. Because a lot of people have spent a lot of time being in a relationship where they avoid talking about the things they’re afraid are going to ruin the relationship. So if you have a relationship where you can talk about anything, and by talk, I mean actually have a conversation that creates completion or agreement that this conversation will never be complete versus the way my mom and dad would would talk, they would blurt something out, and then there would be a fight and then a lot of doors slamming. Then there would be no forward movement on that thing. 

So if you have a relationship where you can talk about anything and actually have a dialogue, I just want to acknowledge you, you are light years– You’re like Star Trek, compared to everybody else in relationships and communicating. You were using warp drive and can actually have scary grown up conversations and move through them – work together. If you don’t have that kind of relationship, starting to build that kind of ability in your relationship, that is going to be healthy whether you’re monogamous, whether you’re kinky, whether you’re polyamorous or a swinger, or vanilla, whatever. That’s the biggest missing piece for people in relationships in general is they don’t have that kind of communication ability built into their relationship yet. Their communication muscles are not– They didn’t go to the communication gym and workout, and build those muscles.They want to bring up these big topics, but they can’t. 

Reid Mihalko: If you don’t have those abilities, then go hire a therapist that works for both of you and have them be the mediator. They can be the person at the gym who’s spotting you guys while you work out. So that’s the other plate: start building that relationship where you can have those conversations. The third plate, to just keep it to three plates because we could probably get a ton of them, is understanding new relationship energy as a concept, which really only gets talked about in poly, and also like in kinky as well. But in the swinger community, you’re not supposed to fall in love. So they don’t talk about new relationship energy. In monogamy, you’re not supposed to fall in love. So we don’t talk about new relationship energy. In poly, you’re allowed to fall in love. So understanding and doing some geeking out on new relationship energy, and how when you start dating somebody or have a huge crush on somebody, or fall in love with somebody, your brain is so hooked on that person that you will prioritize them consciously and unconsciously. Because that’s where the new high is. They’re your cocaine dealer, basically. And you are really into your cocaine dealer. So there’s a tendency to forget about your other relationships, so understand what you’re like when you’re in love and how do you prioritize your primary relationship, in helping the relationship you two have, get the relationship needs met. Also, understand what the needs are of your partner who has hopefully written things down on a post-it note for you, so that you can support each other in getting those needs met too. 

One of the easiest places to start looking is I recommend everybody read Gary Chapman’s, The Five Love Languages, that will help a lot for having your partners and loved ones feel loved while you’re completely stoned on somebody else. So those would be my three spinning plates in my circus routine of answering this question today.

Dawn Serra: I love it. I love all three of those plates. I think the important thing, too, is if at any point, especially plate number three starts to wobble or you drop it, and once you’ve opened the relationship up, there are some oops or some hurt feelings, having the ability to articulate your needs; and also having the ability to have those really awkward and weird, and uncertain conversations is going to be what gets you through and to the other side. Keeping things strong and healthy through mistakes and even creating better relationships through mistakes, but you have to be able to have those weird awkward conversations multiple times to get through that stuff. 

So I think you’re so right, those first two plates are super important to get you through when you start dropping some of the other plates, which is part of life and happening and having other relationships. Sometimes shit just goes wrong.

Reid Mihalko: Yeah. Also understand, giving yourself and each other grace that you’re not going to get good at this right away. This is not the thing, you listen to a podcast and, “Ahhh…” All of a sudden you know how to spin plates. This is going to be work, but it is so rewarding – so rewarding. Your ability to get better at these things just makes you so much more powerful in relationships.

Dawn Serra: Well, Jenny, I hope that Reid’s amazing advice is helpful to you or at least gives you some points of thought and places to start doing a little practice and research. Please report back and let us know how things are going once you’ve chewed on that a little bit. 

Okay, so I have one last question that I would love to run past you, and it’s about threesomes. I think that maybe you have a little bit of experience with threesomes. So, maybe you can help me answer this.

Reid Mihalko: I’ll try.

Dawn Serra: You’ll do your best. Riffle wrote in about a “Bi Male Couple Exploring Threesomes”. Here’s what he says: “I’m a bi man engaged to another bi man. We are philosophically poly but currently monogamous. We’re exploring the idea of MMF, and to a lesser degree, MMM threesome. I recently discovered your podcast thanks to Kate McCombs.” Yay, Kate.

Reid Mihalko: Yay, Kate!

Dawn Serra: Yeah. “I’ve been bingeing over the holiday break with special attention paid to episodes that talk about threesomes. I’m hoping that you can help me with two things. First, finding a third seems like a real challenge. On one hand, my partner doesn’t do sex with strangers because it doesn’t turn him on. But on the other hand, I do, and sex with people we know freaks me out of it. So how do we find a third? Secondly, what configurations and positions work for people who do MMF or MMM threesomes? I’m curious. Thanks for all you do. Your exploration of these subjects has been mind expanding and already very helpful for the relationship with my fiance.” 

Reid Mihalko: Wow, these are great questions. Your people rock. 

Dawn Serra: Thanks, they really do. 

Reid Mihalko: Okay, so first off before I forget, people can go to my website and click on the store. I actually have an audio recording talk about Initiating Successful Threesomes and there’s a little workbook. So I would recommend for people who have the funds to buy a program, that’s probably going to help a lot. The verbal answer, without the writing exercises and stuff like that, the verbal answer on this situation is you’re always, in sex in general but especially with group dynamics, because this is also advise not just for three ways but for more assumes – you’re looking for what makes you and the other people feel emotionally safe and physically “safe”. Air quotes around safe because you know something can always go wrong and people can get triggered or anxious about stuff in the moment. But generally speaking, what is going to have people who are in relationships feel secure and safe about the relationship? What’s going to have you feel like you can show up more fully, even with some people, what what is erotic about group sex is that it feels dangerous. It’s not actually no one’s in danger. 

One of the great questions when I’m coaching people around threesomes is, one of the first questions is partner people you know or strangers. In this, eloquently written situation it was like, “My partner wants people we know and I like stranger sex.” So one of the off the cuff solutions is then have your partner go find somebody for you guys to sleep with, so that they get to know them, but then they’re a stranger for you when they get into the bed. If that’s the prerequisite – you don’t like sleeping with people that you know, if that is negotiable then having you both find somebody that you want to sleep with, that your partner then feels connected to, like they know, is going to be probably the easiest thing to go for. Because in this situation, if knowing the person isn’t unsafe for you, and knowing the person is safe for your partner, then you always kind of go with the lowest common denominator on safety. Actually, I probably can word that better. You go with the simplest way that makes – where the safety starts for everybody involved. 

Reid Mihalko: So in this situation, if you can sleep with strangers or people you know, your partner’s need is that it’d be somebody they know. So the situation gets centered around, “Okay, so we find somebody we know.” Mm hmm. It’s like when you’re playing with this – the same approach applies with safer sex. If you always go with the person who needs the most, you start there. So if everybody’s playing together and for whatever people say for sex needs, they require that everybody uses gloves for genital contact and fluid exchange contact, then even if you’re okay with not using gloves, you wear gloves. You safety it up to the person who requires “the most”, because that’s where the safety starts for all involved. Does that make sense? Did I say that well?

Dawn Serra: Absolutely. 

Reid Mihalko: So this applies when you’re thinking about emotional safety in group dynamics. So now the question is we need to find somebody that my partner knows for this to be a go. Where do you go to find somebody that you know, who would be up for and a good choice? A smart choice for a threesome, not just somebody who’s drunk enough to have a threesome like, “Bob, your co-worker Jen is drunk enough to have a threesome. You know Jen, therefore, we must have the threesome with Jen.” It doesn’t work that way. You want to pick somebody who is – you want to stack the deck in your favor to having a successful three way. Is that somebody who has already had many successful threesomes? That would be a good person to start with. Is it somebody who, maybe they’ve never had a threesome but have excellent communication skills, know how to use their words around the sex that they have? Is somebody that has good, safer sex practices?

When you start listing all these things, you’re like, “Oh, my goodness, how are we ever going to find that person?” Trust me, they’re out there. You just need to start hanging out or looking for these people in what I would call watering holes. I want to talk about dating your species, which is another thing that I talk about, and I also have a thing on my store about… It’s like, we live in this world where we think if we get more and more specific with what we’re searching for, we’re never going to find that person because it’s too much to ask for. And I’m going to tell you all that the internet has been around for a while. You can get really specific when you’re googling something, the more specific you are in what you’re googling for, often, the better your search results are. We just don’t think about this when it comes to sex and relationships. And admittedly, if you live in a town of 500 people, maybe there isn’t somebody in your town that’s into all the things you’re into. But if you start expanding the range of your search, you might find people that are more “perfect” for the thing that you’re looking for. 

Reid Mihalko: So in this situation around threesomes, what communities can you find or tap into that would have people that would be interested in having threesomes or already talking about open relationships, group sex dynamics – where would these people be hanging out? Now you’re into the realm of poly munches and polyamory conferences and things like that, polyamory Facebook groups, if you like using Facebook. A lot of poly people seem to have good results with certain dating sites where the algorithms are more attuned to people who know what they’re looking for. Match.com is better for people, algorithmically, who don’t know what they need, because the way that they do their questions and everything – it helps people find clarity. Whereas like Kettle of Fish, or OkCupid – OkCupid’s really good for people who already know what they’re looking for around questions and things like that. There’s Fetlife – Fetlife.com is the key version of Facebook. You could search there, but the more you’re clear about what you’re looking for, you want to put that clarity out there and see who responds to it, because you want to scare away all the people who are bad fits.

Dawn Serra: Yes, please do that.

Reid Mihalko: Because it will save you less headache. It doesn’t sound like in the question that your listener sent in, that you and your partner, your life’s calling is to help people through their first three way. There are people out there who love being other people’s firsts, and they’re just better at it. But it sounds like you and your partner would do better with finding somebody who’s had a couple of threesomes, who loves having guy-guy three ways. Or somebody who’s interested in having that, but has a lot of great communication skills already. Ideally, you find the person who has all those things, and then they get to have the great joy of being your first together. Then, in the bed advice is go slow. Don’t make it all about the sex. Put more crayons in your crayon box of what a threesome means. If it’s all three of you in your shower, loofaing and each other down and making out, I think that’s a win. So it doesn’t have to look like the threesome experience that you see commonly portrayed in porn. 

Dawn Serra: Right, yeah. So having those additional crayons will help if somebody’s penis decides not to cooperate, or if somebody cums really quickly and takes some time to recover because all the nerves are so high especially on that first time. I love that advice of – allow it to be erotic and maybe not in a porn way. Maybe it’s not like penis is in holes or something.

Reid Mihalko: Three people in a bed, just touching each, just cuddling – do you realize how many people on the planet want to experience something like that but will never? Just cuddling, just a three way kiss, is a serious win in my to do list for the day. 

Dawn Serra: Yes. I love that. You gave such amazing advice and hopefully, Riffle, you got some tidbits that you can share with your fiance about navigating that threesome experience that you’re both eager for. I just want to offer: take your time and just make sure that you both feel good. Also, let it be weird and awkward. If it’s weird and awkward that first time or even the first couple of times. Sometimes weird and awkward is just what you have to go through to figure out what you really want and what really works. Also allow for that to be one of those things where afterwards like, “Well, that’s not what we thought it would be.”

Reid Mihalko: Yeah, yeah, there’s a lot of advice in the Initiating Successful Threesomes program. Because I talk about that in certain ways. There’s a lot of things that you can cover, and it’s better to cover in a program because you can listen to it over and over again. I do have a little worksheet book that you can print out, and you and your partner can write answers down. I think when you really start looking at, “Hey, how do we do this?” Asking yourself really good questions and doing some writing exercises. It sounds so cheesy, but it can be so useful for you and your partner then compare answers; and have more conversations which hopefully will save you all the crash and burn, implosions and headaches that I went through in my first couple of dozen threesomes. I have had some horrible mistakes. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel. You don’t have to go through all the hard work.

Dawn Serra: Learn from my pain.

Reid Mihalko: Exactly.

Dawn Serra: Thank you so much for writing in, Riffle. Reid, we are at the end of our super amazing hour. It zoomed by. I would love for you to share with everybody how they can find more about you and stay in touch.

Reid Mihalko: So the main website is reidaboutsex.com – REID about sex dot com. It’s almost on all social media. It’s @reidaboutsex everywhere. It is Reid Mihalko on LinkedIn. You can check out other courses. You can sign up for my newsletter list there on reidaboutsex.com but there’s a relationship10x.com and sex10online.com are two online programs that have some free training videos you can sign up for and then see if you want to geek out with me more on an online course. People can always email me and ask me questions. I can’t respond to everything. But I do try to read everything and I answer a lot of questions on my YouTube channel.

Dawn Serra: Yay. Yeah, all of those links on dawnserra.com/ep153 for this episode. So everyone can be super easy and just clicking through to find you and all the courses that you mentioned. I want to thank you, Reid, for coming on the show. It was long overdue and so much fun. So thank you so much.

Reid Mihalko: Thanks for having me, Dawn. It was awesome as always.

Dawn Serra: You’re welcome. To everybody who tuned in, thank you so much. Of course, if you have any questions or comments, you can go to dawnserra.com and hit me up. I will do my best to answer that in the coming weeks and months. Of course, make sure You’re also signed up for the newsletter so you can find out what this one’s theme for listener confessions is. Thank you so much and I will talk to you next week.