Sex educator and sexuality and body image coach Elle Chase, is a graduate of the comprehensive San Francisco Sex Information, Sex Educator Training Program and a member of the American College of Sexologists. Elle also serves as the Director of Education & Lead Sex Educator at the Los Angeles Academy of Sex Education, which offers pleasure inclusive classes, on sexuality, gender, sexual health and sexual lifestyles. She is also the author of “Curvy Girl Sex: 101 Body-Positive Positions to Empower your Sex Life,” from Fair Winds Press and as her alter ego Lady Cheeky, is the editor of the smash hit (very) adult coloring book, the #NSFW Totally Naughty Coloring Book by SheVibe.com.

Elle is also the creator, curator & editor of two award-winning and highly trafficked sexuality websites, www.LadyCheeky.com (NSFW) which has been named as the number one site for porn for women, and its companion editorial site www.SmutForSmarties.com which has been L.A. Weekly’s choice for ‘Best Sex Blog’ since 2013.

Follow Elle on Twitter @TheElleChase and @LadyCheeky (NSFW).

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye! 

Hello, you. Welcome to this week’s episode of Sex Gets Real. I am Dawn Serra and I have so many things for you this week. The first is, if you haven’t heard, please make sure that you head over to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. I have already started to gather some supporters, which makes me feel so excited. I just recently updated the Patreon with a post that in early March, I am going to be doing a live Q&A/Pajama Party just for people who pledge at the $3 level or higher. So if you want to join in the fun, then head over to Patreon and check out the different levels and see if you’d like to support the show. The more support I get there, the less I have to shop around for sponsors, which is awesome. 

Dawn Serra: Speaking of sponsors, I know that Valentine’s Day is right around the corner and HotelsByDay is generously sponsoring this episode again. They have hotels in Manhattan, Chicago, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, San Francisco, New Orleans, Miami – pretty much all of the major cities in the states. If you need a discreet day stay for some type of really sexy getaway, or if you just want to treat yourself to getting away from it all so that you can do something creative or delicious like a spa day, drop the kids off with a family member, and totally unwind then HotelsByDay would love to have you. Of course listeners get 5% off so make sure you use the code SGR5Off for Sex Gets Real and enjoy that day stay. I know I have been shopping around for something to surprise Alex with. So keep that in mind. 

For all of you on the newsletter, you already know that February has a listener confession theme of surprises. So we have our first listener confession for February, and I am going to get to that in just a minute. But I also wanted to let you know, this week’s episode is with Elle Chase. I mentioned a few times in the episode that Elle is the first repeat guest on the show. And that’s not true. It was actually Kate McCombs, who did her repeat episode just before the new year with Louise Boucher. I don’t know if my brain fizzled just because both of them were there. And so it didn’t occur to me, but Elle is the second person to be on the show two times as a guest. But we have an absolute blast in this episode. There’s lots of personal stories and awkward stories, and me talking about sex, and Elle talking about sex and I think you’re really going to enjoy it. But let’s get to that listener confession. So here we go.

Listener Confession: “Hi, Dawn. I’m super nervous about writing into you. But I saw February’s theme and I couldn’t resist. So here’s my story about surprises. When I was 22 years old, I had been in a relationship with my boyfriend for about five years. We met in high school, fell in love, and continued seeing each other through college. Just after we graduated from college, we went on a celebratory trip to the Florida Keys. My boyfriend and I had days and nights filled with sex, as you do on a beach getaway. There was wine and celebrating for our entry into adulthood. On the fourth night, he told me to get dressed up and prepare for an epic evening. I put on the one and only nice dress that I’d packed and he whisked me off to a fancy restaurant. We had always loved the thrill of public sex. So once we were at our table looking at the menu, his hand slipped beneath the table and started teasing my pussy.” 

“Eventually he had to stop because I was getting so flushed, and we enjoyed a wonderful meal. At the end of it, the waiter brought us a dessert, and on the plate written in chocolate was the question: Will you marry me? My boyfriend got down on one knee in front of the entire restaurant and popped the question, ring in hand. In that moment, I did something that shocked me. I said, No. I don’t know where it came from, and if I take even a second to think about all the eyes on us, I might have hesitated or even lied. But the no just slipped out. I didn’t know what to do. So I hurriedly left the restaurant, and I ran all the way back to our hotel room. I can’t even imagine the humiliation he must have felt.” 

Listener Confession: “My boyfriend finally made it back to our room and I was crying, and apologizing over, and over and over again – promising to help pay for the meal, to do anything that I could to make up for what I done, but he wasn’t mad. He was sad and embarrassed. But the thing that surprised me the most was him saying that he was glad I had said no, if I wasn’t completely sure. We ended up having this all night talk where we shared things we’d never said out loud before. We had sex that defies words. It was so connected and deep and meaningful, that there were tears and it even hurt – hit points from how exposed we both were. In the morning, he told me he still loved me and that he wanted to continue being in my life, even if I wasn’t ready to get married, but only if I wanted that to.”

“That was six years ago, and we just got engaged which shocked everyone. But he was really patient with me. He believed in me, he believed in us. We’ve had our ups and downs, our betrayals, our experimentation. It wasn’t right then, but it sure feels right now. So surprises – they seem to be around every corner and I’m looking forward to seeing what’s next. Thanks, Kaylee.”

Dawn Serra: Oh my god, that was so touching. Thank you so much for writing in with that confession, Kaylee. I love it. I feel like that sets such a beautiful tone for our February theme of surprises and listener confessions. So if any of you want to write in with your confession, you can go to dawnserra.com/ep147 for this episode, and there’s a link to the guidelines page so that you can submit your confessions to. Don’t forget, if you’re on the newsletter, you get advanced notice of what the following month’s theme is so that you can start cooking up your own story. Here we go with Elle Chase. 

Welcome back to the show, Elle.

Elle Chase: Thank you, thank you. I’m so excited.

Dawn Serra: So can I tell you, I think that you are the first repeat guest on Sex Gets Real in three years.

Elle Chase: Get out of town. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. 

Elle Chase: Oh, I’m honored.

Dawn Serra: I know. Our last conversation was so fucking popular and downloaded so much, and people loved it. So I’m super excited to have you back because people love you. 

Elle Chase: Oh my goodness. What a nice thing. spend the day thinking about.

Dawn Serra: Just how loved you are. Well, we’re here today to talk about your brand new book, Curvy Girl Sex: 101 Body Positive Positions to Empower Your Sex Life. But first, I have to make you a little confession.

Elle Chase: Oh, what?

Dawn Serra: So I know you’re still being super delicious curating hot smut over at ladycheeky.com. And you also know, I don’t know if the listeners do, but you also know I’ve basically had the plague for the past week and have been down and out. Two days ago, my sweetie was doing some research for me and sent me an email that I didn’t open because I was like, “I’m too tired to look at the research.” A day later he goes, “Did you ever open my email?” I was like, “No, but I’ll look at that next time I’m back at work.” He was like, “There’s something else in there for you.” So I opened the email. I scrolled to the bottom and he had sent me six super sexy lady cheeky links. So then that inspired some really, really hot sex last night.

Elle Chase: Oh, I’m so glad. That’s what it’s there for. 

Dawn Serra: I know!

Elle Chase: Oh my god! This is the best possible story I could hear. Awesome. So glad. Bless your heart. Thank you.

Dawn Serra: You’re welcome. So yes, to everybody listening, if you feel like it’s been a little While some something super hot happened, please go to ladycheeky.com and pick out some sexy links and send them to your lover or your lovers and see what happens.

Elle Chase: That’s how it got started and that seems to be how it goes. 

Dawn Serra: It is my go to anytime I need to make something sexy happen. I’m wondering, I know you were talking about this off air, but I’d love to hear a little more about it. You, at this point, have I think tens of thousands of images that you’ve curated on lady cheeky over the years. I wonder for you, at any point, does it feel like a chore? Or does it continue to be something that you feel fun and feels like a treat whenever you sign in and you get to do it?

Elle Chase: It’s a lot like sex. I was thinking about this the other day because there’s some time, I put everything in a queue. And there’s only so many pictures that the queue can take and if I haven’t curated in a while, it’ll get down really low. I’ll think, “Oh, god, I’ve gotta reinstate the queue.” If I’m in the middle of something, I’ll go, “Oh, god, right. I gotta do that. I have to do that.” But then when I go and do it, it’s like, “Oh my god, why am I not doing this every day?” It is so hot. It always leads to an orgasm for me. And it is so much fun. It has become a part of who I am, part of my identity, a part of my life. I really enjoy it so much.

Dawn Serra: It’s like your creative sexual outlet.

Elle Chase: Yeah, it’s my creative sexual outlet using other people’s creative sexual outlets. Putting them together in a pastiche of an artwork, I like to think of it in that highfalutin way.

Dawn Serra: Well, I don’t know what’s going to come of it yet, but I hope to someday have something on lady cheeky myself. Because I am going to Madison Young’s Erotic Film School in March to learn how to become an erotic film director.

Elle Chase: First of all, will you tell her I say hello?

Dawn Serra: Absolutely.

Elle Chase: I’m so excited you’re going to do that. That is something I’ve always wanted to do. So please, let’s talk after you do it. I want to hear all about it.

Dawn Serra: Okay, I totally will. So let’s go and just say, holy shit. You published a book.

Elle Chase: I can’t fucking believe it. I mean, look, it’s not Shakespeare. I finished it, I put it together. I am really proud of myself. I think it’s a really good book.

Dawn Serra: Yay, so how did this come about? 

Elle Chase: I got a call from the publisher, actually. I was referred to them by Tina Horn and Lauren Marie Fleming because they had gone to them to see if they wanted to write this book. They were both busy with other projects, so they came to me. I was like, “Hell yeah, I’ll do that. I’ve got it basically written already in my head.” So that’s how we did it. They were really wonderful to work for. And they let me include a lot of different types of sex. There was a lot of diversity in it for the first time in their publishing history. So there were some groundbreaking things going on that was really satisfying, really wonderful people to work with. So it was a great experience all the way around.

Dawn Serra: So I know that one of the things you said was when they approached you, and they’re like, “So 101 positions.” You were like, “Holy shit. How do I come up with 101 body positive, fat-friendly positions?” Now, you’re actually like, “Oh, there’s way more.”

Elle Chase: Yeah. When I signed the contract, I don’t think I missed the part of 101. So I was thinking 50 and then 101, and I started panicking. Like I was telling you, I was coming up with doggy style reading a J.Crew Catalogue. But now that I’ve done all of the positions, at least once, sometimes way more than that, because I have favorites. I can see how there would be even more positions for people of size. I could get into it even more deeply and more into the body mechanics of it. 

So it was really – I learned a lot that way because now I look at a position and I go, “Oh, no, you want to put your leg there because the gravity is going to work this way, and your muscles work this way.” So it really made me excited for people like me, who are either fat or curvy, or just differently-abled or whatever. Pregnant women – there are positions for pregnant women.

Dawn Serra: One of the things I love about the book is that so many of us have internalized the messages about what sexy looks like and what sex looks like. Often when we are in a fat body, or a body that’s maybe aging, or a pregnant body, or maybe we are a person that has some type of disability, it can feel like asking for accommodations is almost like admitting that we’re not sexy. So one of the things that I love about this book is, first of all that it’s trans inclusive, and you talk about all kinds of sex ed stuff. So we’ll get into that in a minute. But you’re using these fun images and these fun names, and of course, you’re amazing personality and sense of humor, to make it normal and okay, and fun and sexy to be like, “Hey, I have a tummy,” or “I have really big thighs,” or I” have a huge ass, so this type of a position I’m seeing in Cosmo won’t work for me. But here’s something that could,” and it’s like an invitation rather than a, “Shame on you for not being able to.”

Elle Chase: Yeah, that’s a really good point. I’m glad you brought that up. Because as a fat girl, it’s always felt like having to make an accommodation and saying, “We can’t do doggy style because I have really bad knees. Also, if I put my chest down to the bed in doggy style, I have a hard time breathing.” It makes you feel really unsexy. And just to know walking into it that you have a bag of tricks, where you don’t even have to ask you just go, “Oh, want to doggy style? Great. Let me grab the Liberator. Let me grab some pillows,” or whatever. It’s taking ownership of what you need to do in order to have astounding pleasure in your body. It’s also something that is pre-set up in your mind from society. It’s like, if you don’t look like this, then everything else you have to do to accommodate yourself, regardless of what you look like, is not going to be as special or as wanted say, as something else. 

So going in with a bag of tricks, going in knowing that you can have this with 101 positions, knowing that you can do that, I think is really freeing and permission giving. I think also another thing is something I hope to have put forth into the book is asking people to get a sense of, “You know what, this is sex. It’s not life or death. It’s a sex. It’s supposed to be fun and the person I’m with wants to be with me.” Being able to – if it’s slow, that’s fine. But be able to put that critical part of ourselves on the back burner for an hour or two hours or even 30 minutes or 10 minutes, depending on what you’re doing. But just making a deal with yourself and say, “You can think about this all you want afterwards, but right now, we’re not going to think about this.” Just making some sort of accommodation and being kind to yourself – that is the biggest, most important thing you could possibly do, regardless of any position anywhere is being kind to yourself.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. It’s really interesting, because actually, last night during the super sexy, when I happened to get spanked with a Pampered Chef spoon. One of the things that he asked me to do was, I was on all fours and he said, “Put your hands between your legs. I want to tie your wrists to your ankles.” So that I would have been facedown on the ground with my ass up and my arms between my legs. I had tried that before a couple of years ago with a kinky partner, and I had a massive panic attack because I couldn’t breathe. I felt so much shame around that back then. Last night when it happened, I thought, “I’ll give it a try.” He had put a pillow under my neck and my shoulders. So I got down into the position and I was okay there. But when he went to do the rope, I said, “I think I’m going to freak out if you add the rope. I need to be able to get out of this because it’s a little tough for me.” And for 45 seconds, I felt terrible. I felt like, “Oh, my body, it’s not doing this thing that would be so sexy that I want it to do.” Then I decided, “I can worry about that later. Right now, I’m naked with my ass in the air and something fun is about to happen. So let’s just see what happens.” Then we ended up having the super super hot sex and I didn’t stay in it for very long. But he pinned me down on the sofa with my ass in the air, and it was still super hot. 

Allowing that I can still have that moment of like, “I wish my body could do this thing. But how about I let that thing go for right now, instead of sitting in it, and then it totally ruins the entire night?” So I think that’s one of the things, too, like when you’re in a body of any shape or any size – I don’t care how thin you are, there’s going to be certain things you want to do and you can’t. Giving ourselves the permission to – we might for just a half a second feel shitty about it, but learning how to, “There’s something else that’s fun that’s going on right now. So I’m just going to teach myself to focus on the fun and move on.” So, I love that permission.

Elle Chase: Yeah. I’m really, really glad that you brought that up. Thank you for sharing that, because it is so important that when you’re trying new things, and like you said, you can be thin – it doesn’t matter what you look like. There’s also always going to be something that you don’t like about yourself that you’re going to focus on in the moment, no matter what you look like. Being able to get rid of that to a certain extent or try as hard as you can, at least, to replace it with something fun is about to happen, will really, really open up your eyes; in a different way about your body, about how you feel about your body, about how sexy you are, and how much your partner finds you sexy. 

I had an experience recently – I’ve never been the most kinky person in the world but my partner is. We have a great deal of trust between us and one night he wanted to collar me and tie me up. It wasn’t something that appealed to me, but I didn’t see anything wrong with it. So I said, “Sure, fine. Go right ahead.” And it turned out to be some of the hottest sex I’ve ever had. But in between that, he tied me up and gagged me and collared me, and did all of that stuff. Then he started taking pictures and videos of me with my phone. He’s like, “You’ve got to look at this. It’s so hot, it’s so hot.” I went, “I’m not sure how I’m going to feel about that. I don’t really want to look at it.” He’s like, “Come look, come look.” I looked at it and it was not how I wanted to look. 

Elle Chase: When I looked at my pictures, it was not how I envisioned myself looking in that moment when I was having such a good time. In the past, it would have taken me out of the entire weekend we were together. It would have taken me weeks to get over. I still may not be over it, that kind of thing. But instead, I looked at him and I said, “You know what, I’m having a reaction to this. I need to process it before we can do anything else.” So instead of six weeks or six days, it took me six hours and I was able to go throughout the rest of the day and then go into the evening and have some more wonderful sex. 

So my point about telling this story is that there will always be something that we’re not sure about. Obviously, everything should be consensual. I mean, I don’t think I should have to say that but sadly, I do. Everything should be consensual, you should never do anything you don’t want to do. But if you want to do it, but you’re a little bit apprehensive, feel into it and see if it’s something that you feel that you can trust your partner with. And that they’ll stop if you say stop, and see if you can do it as an exercise to get that feeling of unsexiness or fear of what you look like out of your mind so that you can enjoy the actual new sensation that you’re about to have. Does that make sense?

Dawn Serra: I had that exact same experience a couple of years ago with that same kinky partner who wanted to tie me up with my face down on the bed. He also took pictures of me hogtied. Then the next morning, I was getting out of bed and I was stretching, and he snuck a picture of me from behind. I remember he showed it to me and he was like, “You look so glorious. You look radiant this morning.” He was really genuinely proud of that picture of me. And when I looked at the picture, I felt horror of like, “Oh my god, my rolls are that big? My ass is that wide?” I had this moment of dissonance where I was having this really negative reaction and he was genuinely offering this really powerful complement. 

He was so proud of the picture that he had snapped and giving myself a chance to see it through his eyes. It was so hard. But I look at that picture now and I have very different feelings. It’s been four years, but I remember in that moment, this terrible war happening and just, “Maybe I can try and see what he sees.” Then realizing that maybe there is something really gorgeous about my hair, and maybe there’s something really gorgeous about my skin and how smooth it looks. So trying to create a little distance between that knee-jerk reaction that I’ve been trained to have about my fat body and the reaction that’s coming from somebody else and how they appreciate it. So I love that you have that experience because I was like, “Ahh!”

Elle Chase: Oh, I love that you had that experience and that we’re sharing that right now. Think of it as something that many people, more people than we care to admit, have at some point. Part of what got me out in six hours was how sincerely effusive he was about how turned on he was looking at me in that way, and having those pictures, and watching the porn of us together. He really genuinely was turned on by the way I looked. 

So this is what I say in my classes and to clients is what you think of yourself is none of your business. There’s a great book by that title, too, and it has to do with the same thing. But it is what you think of yourself as none of your business, it is there as a construct from your whole life of growing up and taking in different comments from people who didn’t necessarily have your best interests at heart.

Dawn Serra: I would love to circle back to the book. One of the things I want to say is you have these wonderful little icons throughout the book that help people decide what positions might work better for them. I just want to share a couple of them. You’ve got an icon for strap-on friendly, which is so fun and inclusive. You have ones for larger tummies, for larger thighs, for pregnant women, for positions that are easier on the back or on the knees, if you have a large partner. I love that that gives people the opportunity to like, “Okay, I have a larger tummy. So maybe this one would be better for me,” and actually finding what does work with your body versus like, “Oh, that won’t work for my body.” 

Elle Chase: I had that idea because as I was coming up with these positions, I was like, “I have a big tummy and a big ass and big thighs, this wouldn’t be so comfortable for my tummy being squished in this position, but it’s fine for my ass and my thighs.” Then it dawned on me, because I also have bad knees and a bad back – why not do a key so that people who have one or many of these issues can flip through and recognize the colors of the keys, and be able to tell which ones they should start first and which ones they need to work for through. Same with pregnant women – pregnant women is a different body shape. But it’s not mushy, the stomach isn’t mushy, it’s hard. There’s a human being in there. So you want to be careful to make accommodations for that particular thing as well. So I’m glad you found that useful and inclusive because that was the design.

Dawn Serra: So something else I love is what I wish someone had told me about sex as a fat chick – your points about what you wish someone would have told you. I’d love to know what is one of your favorite things that you really wish someone would have told you long ago to have saved you some time or some suffering?

Elle Chase: Oh my god, I think the big one for me when I started becoming really sexually active was sex is inelegant at best. It is not something – it is absolutely nothing like what you see in movies and television, except that peg A goes to slot B, whatever slot B that is. I mean, when I got married at 33, I didn’t understand why my husband handed me a towel after we had sex. I didn’t understand why that was a necessity. For me at 33, not to know that, made me sad. Because I felt like, “What else don’t I know?” Turns out it was quite a lot. But what else don’t I know and why was this never told to me? What’s wrong with this? It’s the bodily function. There’s cum that’s coming out of my vagina now. You know what I mean?

So the mechanics of it, the less than attractive what some people might call unseemly – farting during sex, queefing, going “Ouch, you’re on my hair”, getting poked in the eye – all those kinds of things and having to negotiate positions, instead of getting into the position immediately and say, “Okay, I need you to do this and this.” “Okay, but if you do that, then my legs are going to hurt. So why don’t I put…” I mean, there’s negotiation that has to happen. So I think I grew up a little bit naïve in that way, so I would have liked someone to have explained to me all the inelegances – I don’t know how to say that. I don’t think it is a word.

Dawn Serra: We’ll just make it up.

Elle Chase: Make it work. Inelegances of sex in general. As far as being a fat chick, I was fat my entire life. I started getting larger in my 30s when I hit 30. I think that I always thought that there’s no one who’s ever going to want to have sex with me because I’m not thin. And that’s just patently untrue.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Absolutely. Going back to the inelegance of sex. I want more of us to really embrace that truth that sex can be transformative. It can be emotional, it can be heartbreaking, it can be beautiful, and it can be spiritual. But at the same time, their sweat might drop in your eye, and you’re going to bump things. You’re right, there’s going to be weird noises, and I feel like one of the worst crimes of us not talking about how this can be really messy and clumsy and weird, is that then we all have this fear of ruining the “mood”. 

Elle Chase: And shame.

Dawn Serra: Right. When in fact, if we’re able to easily and unapologetically articulate like, “Oh, hey actually my knees are really bothering me today so can we do this other position,” and you just seamlessly move into the other position, and then you end up feeling really good because your body isn’t hurting versus– I think so many of us are like, “Oh, if I say I have to pee or if I say that hurts my knee, it’s going to ruin the mood and I don’t want to ruin the mood. So I’m just going to grit my teeth through the knee pain, and now, I’m not having a good time,” which translates to my partner who – we’re assuming most of our partners care about our experience. So I wish that we could more easily embrace that. It doesn’t have to be about elegance and it doesn’t have to be about being clean or quiet. It’s about being super real and still finding our pleasure in that.

Elle Chase: Yes, I 110% agree. So it’s about – there’s doggy style and not everybody is comfortable being the receiver in doggy style for multitude of different reasons. But for people with a uterus and a cervix and vagina, it’s even more prevalent that that could be uncomfortable because the cervix, the uterus tilts – the cervix tilts throughout the month, throughout the cycle. So I used to sit there and I used to take it from behind, even though it’s incredibly painful and go, “This is just the way doggy style is,” and not wanting to rock the boat. Until I finally said to my partner, “Doggy style isn’t so comfortable for me. We could try it again, but I have a feeling it’s because of where I am on my cycle.” They’re like, “Oh, okay.” They really don’t care. You have a much better time, plus you have this feeling that you have agency over your own body, which is empowering as well.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, absolutely. There’s just so much there. Also, going back to your, “Nobody’s going to want me because I’m in a fat body.” Some of the most common questions I get from men is “I have a small penis, nobody’s going to want to have sex with me.” I think that so many of these same principles around fat bodies or having a disability, or having a small penis or whatever it is – anytime you’re outside of what’s been prescribed to us as sexy, we feel like no one will ever want us and/or I think the more dangerous thing is, because we feel like we’re not very wanted that when someone does finally want us, we feel like we should feel grateful for that.

Elle Chase: Yes. And to hop on the opportunity, no pun intended.

Dawn Serra: Right, exactly. So then we tolerate bad behaviors and we tolerate abuse, and we tolerate people who aren’t really truly delighted in us, because we feel like we’re not going to find someone else. I think some of the beauty of your book is redefining what is sexy and inviting conversations about fantasies and incorporating things like Liberator wedges and pillows so that positions feel better. Doing all of that, knowing that you’re sexy, whether you ask for the Liberatore wedge or not.

Elle Chase: Right. Knowing, too, and really getting, really understanding that regardless of what anybody looks like, we’re all attracted to different things at different times in our lives. If you think about whoever you’ve dated or slept with or been married to, or whatever, does everybody look the same? I mean, I know my past partners don’t look anything alike. It’s always something about them and about how we meet, and the chemistry that unquantifiable thing that draws us together. I think that is what should be focused on more than what someone looks like. 

I remember dating someone who said – he was married, woops. His wife was very athletic and thin, and didn’t have an ounce of fat or body and blonde – everything I’m not. We were having this affair and I did not look anything like that. I said, “So what’s the deal?” He said, “You could give me a 400 pound woman with a sense of her sexuality versus a supermodel without her sense of her sexuality. I’ll take the 400 pound woman every single time.” That also speaks to knowing your own sexuality and being okay with your sex drive, what you like sexually, that it’s inherent inside you, and that it is yours. It is something that everybody has that is their gift for pleasure. So instead of saying, “Hey, fat women are sexy.” Not all fat women are sexy. Not all thin women are sexy. To me, to you, to that person over there, to the guy who’s bagging my groceries. But they are sexy to somebody and not just one person – a bunch of people. So I may not be my neighbor’s cup of tea, but down the street, there’s somebody who’s just aching for me to talk to them. Do you know what I mean?

Dawn Serra: Yep, yep. 

Elle Chase: So somehow we all get together. It’s a miracle we all get together anyway, in general. But somehow that all seems to work out. So the same problems that I have dating, are the exact same problems that everybody else has dating. You’re no different because I’m fat.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I know that one of the things you’ve said you’ve been geeking out – thinking about lately is mutual masturbation, and also getting off on giving pleasure to our partners. I think that there’s a lot of stigma around mutual masturbation in that it’s a lead up to sex or it’s something you do if you’re not engaging in intercourse, and that mutual masturbation isn’t real sex. So I’d love to talk to you a little bit about the beauty and the juiciness, and frankly, sometimes the release that is mutual masturbation.

Elle Chase: It’s all those things, it’s so much more. I love mutual masturbation because it’s something I don’t think that people really think about. I think it’s something that people will default to sometimes when they’re too tired, or when they’re not ready to have penetrative sex. But mutual masturbation, recently, I don’t think people talk about it so much is that masturbation is such a private act. We sort of learned it in secret and we kept it secret, and it’s just assumed that people do it, but it’s never talked about. I think especially for women, I don’t think we talk about masturbation as often as men do, and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that men grow up touching their penises. They have to pee, so they hold the penis to pee. Women are told that it’s dirty down there and you need to wipe it and keep it clean. You know what I mean?

Dawn Serra: Yup!

Elle Chase: I think that the idea can start with being slightly taboo doing it with your partner, and there are different ways to do it. You can both masturbate while you watch each other, you can masturbate each other, you can watch someone do it while you just egg them on. There are all these different ways to do it. I think because it is such a private act that you’re sharing with somebody, whether you’ve known someone for five minutes or five years, it builds an intimacy that perhaps wasn’t there before. You’re sharing something that is so private that you don’t share with people because you do it on your own. It’s not something you share with a group, unless you share it with a group – in a private way. 

I think it’s a great tool for intimacy, and it’s a great way to explore if you slow it down in that tantric way – explore your partner’s body and see what kind of touch drives them wild or how their bodies react when you touch them in a certain way, instead of rushing through it. I think you get to see your partner’s arousal process a little bit more clearly, especially if you’re concentrating on their breathing and how they’re moving, and the involuntary movements of their body or their skin or whatever. I think it is also a great main event. Some of the best sex in the world doesn’t have to do with penis and vagina sex. Some of the best sex in the world is the connection and also other things you can do with your mouth and your hands. 

Elle Chase: This also comes down to penis size for men or people with penises is that sometimes they worry that they’re not thick enough or long enough to give pleasure. They say it’s not the size of the pencil, it’s how you sign your name. It’s how you use that. You can get a variety, especially with 101 in positions. I can come up with 101 positions, especially with different ways you can place your body for different sensations. I think all the time, regardless of penis size. You can get different sensations. Now I’m just drifting off the point. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, I recently did some really enjoyable mutual masturbation where I was actually– I was doing research. My job is so hard. I was doing research. I was getting ready to interview Erica Lust. 

Elle Chase: Oh, I love her. 

Dawn Serra: Oh my god, I know. So I was like, “I have to watch all her porn.” Of course, and I had purchased a couple of her sets and so I was genuinely looking at it for the aesthetic and how it was filmed, and then starting to get turned on. My partner came up behind me and he was like, “That looks hot.” I was like, “Actually, it is hot.” So we started watching it and he was rubbing my shoulders, and then it turned into this thing where we were both watching it, touching ourselves. It was really hot and we were pressed against each other, but touching ourselves and then I started touching him and. I just used my hand on him. That was the whole thing, but it felt so hot and connected and fun. I felt amazing in my body and I want more of us to leave space for those kinds of experiences to be legitimate, erotic, fulfilling sexual experiences. 

Elle Chase: They are on their very own. They are these legitimate sexual experiences. If you have sex once a week and that’s the sex you have, I’ll take it.

Dawn Serra: Yeah!

Elle Chase: It’s amazing. 

Dawn Serra: Totally. I know one of the things that you’re most proud of in Curvy Girl Sex is the opportunity to do some sex education and it’s not just a positions book. It’s a book where you talk about the vulva and the anatomy of a vulva. You talk about the internal structure of the clitoris, you talk about the importance of arousal and building in time for arousal. So I’d love to hear a little bit about some of your favorite things that you included in the book and why you feel like they’re so important.

Elle Chase: Thanks. I think one of my favorite chapters is really about arousal and pleasure anatomy. We can all say that we took anatomy in high school or whatever, but I sincerely doubt anyone has told you how the anatomy works in regard to giving oneself pleasure. I think spelling that out for people who are about to go on a sexual journey is really important because the arousal process, especially for vaginas, is very, very, very important, dare I say essential. 

There are people who have been sort of plagued with dry vaginas who extend their foreplay and their arousal process by double say, and they are no longer dry. They just need more time to get lubricated. And I think that says a lot about our bodies. Some bodies take 2 minutes, some bodies take 20 minutes, some bodies take an hour, who knows. But I think giving ourselves the permission to arouse those parts of our bodies that are there to give us pleasure is a really important thing to focus on – knowing how it works, knowing why you might be feeling sensation in your outer labia, for instance, and maybe you have a conversation with your girlfriend and she doesn’t have those same sensations; and knowing that it’s it’s fine that you’re both “normal”, because we’re all built differently. Knowing that it’s okay not to get excited when your G-spot is stimulated. There’s nothing wrong with you that if your G -spot feels great being stimulated, how do you take advantage of that in the moment? Understanding and being given permission that you don’t have to have an orgasm to have a wonderful night of carnal pleasure and delight.

Dawn Serra: Yeah.

Elle Chase: I think explaining that was really fulfilling for me as a sex educator, knowing that it’s there for people who need it, and it’s there as a reminder for people who may have already learned it, does that make sense?

Dawn Serra: Totally. One of the things that I’ve noticed as a sex educator is that a lot of people actually really know a lot of things, but they have trouble remembering it and applying it in the moment. So we may understand that the clitoris actually has this enormous internal structure, but in the moment when we don’t want to feel awkward, when we don’t want to take too long – when we don’t know how to quite ask our partner to do something a little different, because they’re not hitting the right spot, we don’t really apply that knowledge and have those conversations. Instead, we just tolerate or move through it. 

So I think one of the powerful things about reiterating this information and thousands of different ways is the way that I say something about anatomy and arousal, and the way you say it are different. So at some point, it’s going to really, truly click and make someone go, “Oh, god, that’s the permission I needed. That is the way I needed to hear it so that I don’t feel guilty about how long it takes me to feel in the mood,” and all those kinds of things. So I love that this is another opportunity and another tool for people to be able to get that permission, and to gain that knowledge and also to be able to– I mean, you have these fun cartoons throughout the entire book. So how fun to be able to share this with a partner or lover and have conversations right

Elle Chase: Yeah. Also, there’s at the apart in the book, too, that talks about porn and feminist porn, and using that as an arousal tool. I wanted to take the stigma off of that for women in general that it’s for you too. You could also look at porn with your partner and get aroused, and there’s porn out there that may not be the taste of the five guys that you meet on the bus but that’s your taste. And how bonding and how close you can get with your partner when you watch that, or how much you can learn about yourself when you go to sites like ladycheeky.com. I agree with you.

Dawn Serra: So just to make sure everybody knows this book is beautifully inclusive, so you not only do some education around trans bodies, but the images are also presented as mixed genders. So there’s some of the images of people in positions are two people who present as female and some of the positions are a person who presents as female and a person who presents as male. So there’s strap-on positions. I love that you’ve made this accessible to people who are all different genders, all different bodies, all different sexualities, so that everyone can feel something in there that feels safe for them to be like, “Okay, maybe this is for me.” 

So now that you have written a book, and been through that birthing process, is there something else you’d love to tackle in book form at some point? Something that you are like, “Oh, god, that’s a book I’d love to write,” now that you’ve been through it, or having been through this and you’re like,” I think I need some time.” ?

Elle Chase: No, actually, I’ve already started. I’ve had this class called Big, Beautiful Sex for a long time and it’s more anecdotal than it is practical. I’m writing the book version of that, which are more practical exercises of how to get out of your head, how to start accepting your body so that you can be a vehicle for pleasure – for your own pleasure. So I’ve started writing that, I’m about half done. So let’s see if I finish it soon. But I’m doing that. I’ve got ideas for other books as well. So I’ll probably continue to write until I get sick and tired of it.

Dawn Serra: That’s exciting. I’ve talked to a couple of people who were like, “Oh, I love writing so much. I want to write more books.” Then I have talked to a couple people who were like, “That was so painful. I could go 10 years without another one.”

Elle Chase: Yeah. I don’t enjoy the process of writing, but I enjoy the end results and I enjoy preparing for writing.

Dawn Serra: From your class and from the book, what do you think is the number one tool that you love incorporating for making sex more accessible to larger bodies?

Elle Chase: Well, I think that – two things: One is practical and one is more internal. The first practical part is getting a Liberator Wedge or some very firm pillows. I think that regardless of your size, these are terrific for everybody to be able to manipulate your body into different positions using the industrial strength foam of the Liberator Wedges or the very strong pillows like cushions from your couch or something to prop up pelvises, so that your genitals are wide open for entry or whatever. I’m being inelegant.

The other thing I think is more important than any of those is no negative self talk. If you can do one thing, it would be to help yourself banish the negative self talk, and replace it with something else that you believe. Because that is the number one thing is going to get in the way of your pleasure – is telling yourself bad things and treating yourself with disrespect. Sometimes you can’t help it because it’s been programmed in since you were little. But noticing that you’re having it, and then letting it go and replacing it with something else is the key until you don’t have those negative thoughts anymore. God willing, I still have them so who knows. But being mindful in your practice of sex, because it is a practice and being mindful to be in the moment, which sounds very woowoo and unattainable, but it is attainable. Though it might be woowoo, it works just like a cliché.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. 

Elle Chase: So negative self talk and pillows. 

Dawn Serra: I am a fan of the pillows on the propping up of things, and the propping open of things. Also, yeah, the negative self talk. I mean, I think regardless of what it is that you beat yourself up about whether it’s the way your genitals look or your tummy– I have tits that are super uneven so like one is a triple D and one is just barely a D. So they’re actually quite different. I used to feel super self-conscious about that, that they hung at different sizes and they swung at different sizes if I was in doggy so I would never get on all fours. Now for me, I’ve replaced that with, “There they go again,” and it’s like… But giving myself permission, I still all the time every day, have thoughts where I’m like, “Oh, god, that thing. I wish I was thinner.” “I wish my tummy looked different.” And just letting myself let that thought go. You’re so right. That’s a practice, it’s a conscious practice that means that you fail most of them. 

Elle Chase: Yeah. You’ve had your whole life to come up with these responses to your feelings. You’ve had your whole life of saying, “I hate you, I hate you, I hate you.” It’s going to take some time to replace that with something else. And it will still come back every once in a while. But you will be amazed. I know that I had someone in one of my classes once, who was really in a bad state – just broken up with somebody and was really in a bad state, and kept saying, “Well, if it was that easy to stop my negative self talk, then I would do it and I’d be fine.” I’m like, “No, it’s not easy. I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m just saying that it’s a practice and that you really have to be diligent, just like any other practice.” You have to be diligent about it. Because that’s really what’s going to set you free.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Oh, I love it so much. I want everyone to go out and buy Curvy Girls Sex, support Elle, support sex positive books. Also, be sure to pick up the super amazing coloring books.

Elle Chase: Yes, at shevibe.com.

Dawn Serra: Those are some adult-ass coloring books. 

Elle Chase: There’s a curvy coloring too. So if you’re curvy and you want to see yourself in some very salacious carnal positions… You’d want to go to She Vibe at shevibe.com to get those.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Of course, head to ladycheeky.com if you need super sexy gifts and pictures to send to somebody to get them turned on, and seduce them, because that’s what I do. Elle, I would love it if you would share with everybody how they can get the book and also stay in touch with you and follow along with all your adventures and classes.

Elle Chase: Ah, thank you. Yes, you can find the book wherever books are sold online, at least target Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Walmart – all of these places carry my book online. I assume it will be in many bookstores, I would call your local bookstore and see if they’ll order it if they don’t already have it. For everything else, ellechase.com is my website and on social media, I’m @theellechase. 

Dawn Serra: So I will have links to the book, I will have links to the She Vibe coloring books, I will have links to your website, and all of your social media on dawnserra.com/ep147 for this episode, because I want everyone to check it out and buy the things and support you and follow you. 

Elle Chase: Thank you. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I want to thank you for coming back on the show and for this super fun and engaging chat and for being my first second time guest. 

Elle Chase: Thank you for having me. I’m certainly honored and I always love doing your show. I love it, love it, love it.

Dawn Serra: Oh my god. We just have so much fun. To everybody who’s listening, please be sure to head to dawnserra.com/ep147 so you can check out Elle’s book. Also, make sure you’re on the newsletter so that you can get updates about what’s coming up next. You can also find out what the theme for this month listener confessions is. Of course, if you have questions or comments for me about this episode or anything that you’d like to share with me for future episodes, you can use the contact form and don’t forget Sex Gets Real is now on Patreon. So if you love the show, you can do as little as $1 a month to help me keep this going. So please go to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. I would love to see you there. Thank you so much. Until next time, this is Dawn Serra. Bye.